Ferguson unrest

[Argus]

Dealing with an 18 year old who reaches into a police car and scuffles with an officer is a very different situation from an apparently gentle man trying to earn a living in a very mildly illegal manner. Eric Garner did not rob a store. He violated a regulation designed to ensure the collection of taxes. No one should die for that.

The gentle Eric Garner had more than 30 arrests on his sheet, including assault and resisting arrest in the past.

From what I have been able to see his death resulted from multiple factors, including the excitement of being wrestled to the ground, 'chest compression' when he was forced onto his belly with men atop him, and the neck compression. All of this would have been harmless had it not been for his asthma and hearth problems, however. So determining that the officers' action resulted in his death is less difficult than determining whether they should or could have foreseen that their actions might cause his death.

[GostHacked]

How many of those 30 arrests were unwarranted?

[Bryan]

And yet the NYPD banned the use of the choke hold after a number of deaths...

That was pure PR. NYPD (like virtually all law enforcement departments) still trains chokeholds, and they actually use them more now than they did before the "ban". Subduing a resisting suspect using a chokehold is far safer than just about any other tactic an officer could employ.

I realize you simply have no frame of reference for what I'm talking about, but submission grappling is a fast growing sport. People get choked out every day. Kids are choking other kids out, every day. I was choked 7 times on thursday alone. When you actually do it and see it all of the time, you realize that it is not the big danger some people think it is. I see injuries in the sport every day, but I've yet to see any sort of medical problem due to a choke. Pretty much every other form of submission has a significantly higher chance of resulting in a trip to the hospital. They are the safest and most effective grappling technique I know.

[On Guard for Thee]

BTW Shady, before you accuse me of not posting relative material, make sure you've paid enough attention to know I haven't and while you're at it take a look at #2147

[On Guard for Thee]

Perhaps being choked so often has affected your ability to read and comprehend clearly. Maybe you should ease up on that a bit.

[cybercoma]

Is it several times less likely to happen to Whites than Blacks or is it several times less likely to happen to White criminals than Black criminals?

For as the statistics show us, whites, on average, are much less likely to have encounters with police because they are less likely to live in high crime neighborhoods and less likely to be committing crimes.

White criminals black criminals. The figures have been posted and if you weren't always so stuck on confirming your biases, you would recognize them. Further still, you would also recognize the qualitative arguments about how crime is defined and how black people are policed differently from whites. To give an example, whites are far more likely to use and abuse drugs and alcohol, yet black people are several times more likely to be arrested and imprisoned for it. There is a glaring problem and it can be shown empirically as well as qualitatively, if you and others weren't so damn set on ignoring it.

[On Guard for Thee]

And now here comes William Bratton, the NYPD commissioner, weighing in with his very "helpful" comment referring to the protesters that "these people will soon get tired of wandering around aimlessly". Is he just completely stupid or more ominously, underscoring that the racism exists right from the top of this organization?

[Argus]

White criminals black criminals. The figures have been posted and if you weren't always so stuck on confirming your biases, you would recognize them. Further still, you would also recognize the qualitative arguments about how crime is defined and how black people are policed differently from whites. To give an example, whites are far more likely to use and abuse drugs and alcohol, yet black people are several times more likely to be arrested and imprisoned for it. There is a glaring problem and it can be shown empirically as well as qualitatively, if you and others weren't so damn set on ignoring it.

We don't ignore it. We consider it in context, which you generally do not. A lot of things affect whether someone arrested for a drug offense goes to jail. Not the least of these is whether they're gainfully employed, whether they have a criminal record, and whether they can afford private legal assistance. This is not racial so much as economic.

Blacks are also many times more likely to commit acts of violent crime than whites, especially street crime against strangers, and many times more likely to be involved with street gangs than whites. So yes, that does necessitate a somewhat different style of policing.

Incidentally, this year, the FBI is going to, for the first time, separate out hispanics/latinos into their own distinct group. Up until now the crime committed by Latinos was lumped in under 'white'. I'm guessing that the new stats will show a plunge in 'white' crime, and will show young Latino males committing a disproportionate amount of crime and being treated (stopped, frisked, arrested) far more often than 'whites'.

In short, I don't think the police have any particular hate on for any particular racial group. Their performance is based upon the crime rate of a given group.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

And now here comes William Bratton, the NYPD commissioner, weighing in with his very "helpful" comment referring to the protesters that "these people will soon get tired of wandering around aimlessly". Is he just completely stupid or more ominously, underscoring that the racism exists right from the top of this organization?

I think he's simply showing that he doesn't believe racism is involved in these incidents.

[On Guard for Thee]

He's chosen a really dumb way of doing it. All his comment will do is fan the flames.

[cybercoma]

We don't ignore it. We consider it in context, which you generally do not.

You've never once considered context. It's laughably hypocritical when you go on to demonstrate that in the very same post.

Blacks are also many times more likely to commit acts of violent crime than whites, especially street crime against strangers, and many times more likely to be involved with street gangs than whites. So yes, that does necessitate a somewhat different style of policing.

You haven't read anything that's been posted about this and it's painfully obvious when you continue to trot out this garbage without any reference to the myriad findings that contextualize this.

But, you would have to actually consider context as you say you do.

[cybercoma]

In short, I don't think the police have any particular hate on for any particular racial group. Their performance is based upon the crime rate of a given group.

And also this.

Your post is painfully lacking any sort of reflexivity. You still think this is about personal prejudice or bigotry when it has been pointed out so many times already that this is a strawman.

Look. You think you're a smart guy. Maybe put that to good use to actually learn a thing or two about racism and privilege, what it means, how it affects policing, criminal legislation, and public perception of crime. It's not my responsibility to teach you these things. Take some responsibility to learn them for yourself because you are pathetically ignorant on this topic. You conflate concepts and create strawman arguments constantly. It's the worst kind of intellectual dishonesty when you argue against things that weren't even said and intentionally misconstrue the things people are saying.

[Smallc]

What you don't seem to understand is that racism as a system and privelage as you talk of it are leftist political theory that those on the right are not about to buy, and with pretty good reason.

[Michael Hardner]

What you don't seem to understand is that racism as a system and privelage as you talk of it are leftist political theory ...

What is the theory ? It seems like more of an observation, a perspective than a theory to me.

[On Guard for Thee]

What you don't seem to understand is that racism as a system and privelage as you talk of it are leftist political theory that those on the right are not about to buy, and with pretty good reason.

And that's supposed to explain why a white cop used an illegal choke hold on an unarmed black man?

[Smallc]

What is the theory ? It seems like more of an observation, a perspective than a theory to me.

No it's a theory of social organization, the very foundation many of us can't agree with.

[Michael Hardner]

No it's a theory of social organization, the very foundation many of us can't agree with.

Which one ?

[Smallc]

That racism and privilege are an ingrained part of our culture. You seem to be quibbling over terminology for some reason.

[Shady]

If I did a choke hold on you, I would be charged with assault.

/facepalm

Yes, but you're not a police officer trying to subdue somebody resisting arrest. More conflating and obtuseness.

[Shady]

And that's supposed to explain why a white cop used an illegal choke hold on an unarmed black man?

It's not illegal. The NYPD changed their policy. Regardless, unarmed or armed, the man had committed a crime, and was resisting arrest.

[On Guard for Thee]

It's not illegal. The NYPD changed their policy. Regardless, unarmed or armed, the man had committed a crime, and was resisting arrest.

It is illegal. It has been since 2010. They did so because it caused too many deaths. However it's of course not just illegal for cops. It's just illegal.

[Bonam]

What you don't seem to understand is that racism as a system and privelage as you talk of it are leftist political theory that those on the right are not about to buy, and with pretty good reason.

Indeed, pretty much the moment someone mentions the words "white privilege", I know it's safe to ignore whatever argument they are about to make, since it won't make any sense.

Like cybercoma's example... the supposed white privilege of not being attacked by cops without reason. That's not a privilege dude, that's a right. A right that should extend to everyone. If it doesn't, then the police agencies that attack people for no reason should receive reprimands (including criminal prosecution where appropriate) and additional training/oversight so as to rectify the situation. But to frame the issue as one of white privilege makes no sense whatsoever, it is just a manifestation of the race-obsession that some people seem to have. As cybercoma stated before, to him/her, everything is apparently always about race.

[On Guard for Thee]

Indeed, pretty much the moment someone mentions the words "white privilege", I know it's safe to ignore whatever argument they are about to make, since it won't make any sense.

Like cybercoma's example... the supposed white privilege of not being attacked by cops without reason. That's not a privilege dude, that's a right. A right that should extend to everyone. If it doesn't, then the police agencies that attack people for no reason should receive reprimands (including criminal prosecution where appropriate) and additional training/oversight so as to rectify the situation. But to frame the issue as one of white privilege makes no sense whatsoever, it is just a manifestation of the race-obsession that some people seem to have. As cybercoma stated before, to him/her, everything is apparently always about race.

Perhaps you should remind the grand juries that have sat of late about "criminal prosecution where appropriate". Beyond that it's clear you see the world through the most blinding type of rose colored glasses. Do you still live at home? Have you ever been to the States?

[Bonam]

Do you still live at home? Have you ever been to the States?

Relevance? Don't play the player, play the ball ring a bell? But to answer, I live in the States dude, as you can see clearly under my username, and my parent's home isn't even in the same country What next, you're gonna tell us about how only your experience matters since you've allegedly traveled to like 100 different countries in your secret life as a diplomat, secret agent, and military adviser?

[On Guard for Thee]

Relevance? Don't play the player, play the ball ring a bell? But to answer, I live in the States dude, as you can see clearly under my username, and my parent's home isn't even in the same country What next, you're gonna tell us about how only your experience matters since you've allegedly traveled to like 100 different countries in your secret life as a diplomat, secret agent, and military adviser?

Oh, sorry if I got you at a bad time. Dude. ha ha ha