Ferguson unrest

[cybercoma]

Say what! What are you on about?

He's saying racism isn't real. It's just black parents and grandparents filling their kids' and grandkids' heads with nonsense that doesn't happen anymore.

[cybercoma]

Ok, for my continued sanity, I'm gonna put you on ignore from here on out because this stuff here is some super ignorant shit and it's obvious you have no interest in learning a damn thing about this subject.

Ohhh. Now you notice?

[cybercoma]

It's offensive and insensitive. Without intent, it isn't racist.

It's offensive and insensitive because it's racist, FFS.

[Black Dog]

As has been pointed out before, Black kids are in FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more danger from Black men than they are, ever have been, or ever will be from the police.

Black people who kill black people get arrested, charged and incarcerated. Cops walk. All the time. That's the whole point.

[Black Dog]

They are offended by it because it's become a trigger point for a caricature of the old negro which they don't want to be associated with, which was a paternalistic portrayal of the 'happy negro'. That's understandable. But I think his point is if someone dons blackface deliberately to offend that would be racist, but if they do it out of ignorance, with no malice intended, then it's just ignorance. There is a difference.

Blackface is as much of a racist symbol as a burning cross or a pointy white hood or confederate battle flag. Symbols have meaning beyond what the intentions of the person choosing to deploy them.

[Black Dog]

It's offensive and insensitive because it's racist, FFS.

You'd think that would be an easy connection to make, and yet...

[Black Dog]

I seriously doubt that when their kids are out of the house the primary worry of Black mothers (the fathers largely being absent) is that the police will shoot their lil tyke. They would have the same basic fears as White parents, that their kids might make poor decisions, hang out with the wrong people, maybe get involved in drugs or do something else stupid that gets them hurt. Drugs, alcohol, traffic and other violent youths are FAR more worrying than the police.

There's an added layer of anxiety that comes from living in a society where young black people (especially males) are viewed as criminals. Not just about police, though that's a very different conversation among black parents and white parents, but in general, all with the general theme of "don't give them a reason to suspect your a criminal, because you just might end up dead."

[cybercoma]

You'd think that would be an easy connection to make, and yet...

For people who can't seem to tell the difference between prejudice and racism, nothing about the conversation is "easy."

[Argus]

Black people who kill black people get arrested, charged and incarcerated. Cops walk. All the time. That's the whole point.

A major difference being Black people who kill people are generally thugs, thieves, rapists and murderers. While the police are mostly killing thugs, thieves, rapists and murderers.

Note: I'm not saying there aren't police excesses, or that I wouldn't like to see the militancy of police responses toned down considerably WHERE POSSIBLE. However, I don't see the Brown case as falling under that category, any more than the shooting the other night in the same area. You point a gun at the cops and you get killed I'm not going to condemn the cops for your death.

[Argus]

You'd think that would be an easy connection to make, and yet...

I would actually reverse that and say it's racist if it's intended to be offensive and insensitive.

[Argus]

There's an added layer of anxiety that comes from living in a society where young black people (especially males) are viewed as criminals.

Then maybe the Black community could address the fact so many young Black men ARE criminals. When half the crime is committed by a group which makes up maybe 3% of the population that group is going to draw a ton of police attention.

[Argus]

Ohhh. Now you notice?

You two need to go back and read post 2713 again. It was the most intelligent one on this topic for months.

[Smallc]

For people who can't seem to tell the difference between prejudice and racism, nothing about the conversation is "easy."

It's hard when people don't use the accepted definitions of words.

[Smallc]

You two need to go back and read post 2713 again. It was the most intelligent one on this topic for months.

I'm on my phone, but if it's the post I'm thinking of I agree.

[scribblet]

The left and right viewpoints regarding these issues are just too far apart now for any meaningful discussion.

To those on the left, most interactions in society are defined to a large extent by race, systemic racism is endemic to American (and even Canadian) society, living a normal life is a "white privilege" and an example of injustice. In this view, society has barely, if at all, moved forward from the eras of slavery (replaced with "wage slavery") and Jim Crow, and in fact today's racism is more insidious in the fact that it is veiled and many people deny that it even exists, and hence it must be fought against even harder.

..................

the race of the people involved, or how programs like affirmative action are "institutionalized racism" those on the left pretty much ignore them and assume they are idiots.

As can be clearly seen in this thread which is nothing but a collection of thinly veiled insults for the last few dozen pages, you just can't have a productive discussion when the views are this far apart.

To discuss productively, you may have different opinions, but you can't be starting with totally different believed facts; you have to be grounded in the same reality. And that just isn't the case.

Post #2713

No doubt last night's shooting was racism too, even though the thug pulled a gun on a cop...

[guyser]

For anyone who has opined that profiling blacks is made up hooey or is so minor as to not be a bother, consider these guys and their true tales.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/23/us-usa-police-nypd-race-insight-idUSKBN0K11EV20141223

The officers said this included being pulled over for no reason, having their heads slammed against their cars, getting guns brandished in their faces, being thrown into prison vans and experiencing stop and frisks while shopping. The majority of the officers said they had been pulled over multiple times while driving. Five had had guns pulled on them.

[Black Dog]

A major difference being Black people who kill people are generally thugs, thieves, rapists and murderers. While the police are mostly killing thugs, thieves, rapists and murderers.

Cops walk no matter who they kill.

Then maybe the Black community could address the fact so many young Black men ARE criminals. When half the crime is committed by a group which makes up maybe 3% of the population that group is going to draw a ton of police attention.

Crime is unquestionably a problem borne of poverty, which is a broad social problem. Why, then, is changing that the responsibility of the community with the least power to do so?

I would actually reverse that and say it's racist if it's intended to be offensive and insensitive.

As I said: some things are just inherently racist because of the historical baggage they carry. Blackface is one such thing.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Black Dog

[cybercoma]

A major difference being Black people who kill people are generally ... murderers.

People who kill people are generally murderers. Yup.

[cybercoma]

It's hard when people don't use the accepted definitions of words.

That's the point Black Dog and I have been making to you. When I tell you to open a book, it's because you're completely clueless about what systemic and institutional racism are. Once again, as if I hadn't posted it already, we're talking about complex theories with a significant amount of depth to them and not the denotation of words, boiled down to concise phrases in a dictionary. If you don't care to actually understand what people are talking about, then stop responding.

[Argus]

People who kill people are generally murderers. Yup.

Leaving aside the fact that sort of creative and dishonest editing is against the rules, you really ought to be embarrassed about how pathetically dumb your effort at discrediting what I wrote was.

I mean, seriously, is that the best you can offer?

[TimG]

Once again, as if I hadn't posted it already, we're talking about complex theories with a significant amount of depth to them and not the denotation of words

People develop complex theories with significant depth to them about fictional characters. Complexity and depth is not evidence of truth.

As I said above: racism is a social construct. There are things which are widely understood to be be racist. And there are many things which some people call racist but others disagree. If there is significant disagreement in society over whether something is racist or not the only acceptable option is to "agree to disagree".

Arguing that your opinion on racism is a fact just makes you look like an irrational zealot.

Edited December 24, 2014 by TimG

[Argus]

Cops walk no matter who they kill.

Not always, but yes, generally the issue with police is showing motivation, which is a fundamental part of our judicial system. They're the only group which is actually permitted to use force on others, even deadly force. There's also a tendency on the part of the public to consider certain 'understandable errors' when they believe a reasonable person might have felt threatened under the same circumstances. And, of course, the police don't have criminal records. Most of those arrested for murders do, save for family situations.

Crime is unquestionably a problem borne of poverty, which is a broad social problem. Why, then, is changing that the responsibility of the community with the least power to do so?

Crime is not always born out of poverty. You are a lot safer walking in poor areas in India and Africa than in poor areas in the United States. There is a tolerance for violence in much of the Black community, especially among young men who, most unfortunately, tend to grow up with rappers and gang bangers as their only male role models.

[Wilber]

Like so many labels, whether they are accurate or not, terms like"systemic and institutionalized racism" are handy to throw around.

[GostHacked]

So when the cop is in the right, we see video evidence right away. Where is the CCTV footage of Brown? Most apartment buildings there would have several CCTV cameras.

[Wilber]

So when the cop is in the right, we see video evidence right away. Where is the CCTV footage of Brown? Most apartment buildings there would have several CCTV cameras.

When did a lack of evidence become proof of guilt? Where are all those camera owners claiming the police tampered with their cameras?