Moonlight Graham Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 With regard to ISIS and the Taliban do you see any policy other than surrender? This is further evidence of disarray? Situation in Iraq with ISIS is still developing so it's hard to say quite yet what the West will end up doing. But ISIS does not represent a direct threat to the West at this moment. Very possible they would in the future, so they are certainly very dangerous and must be watched what happens in Iraq/Syria. Point is: is ISIS attacking or actively preparing to attack Western countries? Not that I know of. Same with the Taliban. Al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11, not the Taliban. How many Taliban have attacked or actively planned to attack Westerners outside of Afghanistan & Pakistan? Zero unless you can prove otherwise. Therefore, why waste massive blood and treasure on Taliban or ISIS at this point? Neither is a direct threat...yet. And preemption is a stupid and costly foreign policy. If we're going to commit to militarily destroy every Islamist regime or major group that pops up we'll be war for a long time, bankrupt our countries, kill tens of thousands of our young men & women, and we might not even be successful or even make matters worse in cases (as the Taliban's resurgence and disaster in Iraq has showed). The West should only respond militarily when serious active threats to their security arise. I threw that in to show that Hamas' agenda is not the same as the Left's. The Left supports them only since it would harm the West. You're stereotyping "the Left". Most on the Left do not support Hamas, they support Gazan/Palestianian civilians and criticize Israel sometimes (including this conflict) for what they see as unethical actions. Why should Israelis have to function with the threat that these rockets could hit their target? Why should any advanced society have to operate that way? They shouldn't. But proportionality and ethical military action should be followed. Heck why not just take the money spend on this war and improve the Iron Dome system? I don't have the same faith in the rationality of mullahs that you do. And the equivalents in Israel, the Haredi, do not run the government. Can you name a few examples of irrational geopolitical actions Iran has committed since 1979? Israel is an internationally recognized country. Hamas is a terrorist group. There is no equivalence. Hamas are violent genocidal bastards, I'm not arguing that. I'm not comparing Israel and Hamas in general. I'm comparing the recent hostile actions of both. Hamas killed 6 civilians with rockets in an attempt to kill and spread terror. Israel responded by killing 1400+, almost all civilians, wounding 5000+, and leveling entire communities and their infrastructure even after being abandoned. Oh and they've blown up 2 UN schools/refugee sanctuaries so far. Both groups have acted like bastards, both have committed acts of terror. Neither campaigns should be supported/condoned. In addition, Hamas exists basically to fight. Israel withdrew all its settlers fromt he Gaza in 2006 so the usual excuse, that laying down arms would encourage further settlmeent activity, does not apply. Their activity shows the Arabs' true colors. That's an unfair racial stereotype. Not all Arabs in Gaza are Hamas militants or supporters of Hamas. There are also Gazans who just want peace and are being blown up right now. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
GostHacked Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) 1 - Israel won't allow Palestinians their own military. Uniforms are out of the question. 2 - It's a continuing occupation, resulting in only guerrilla terror like tactics. They cannot act like a standing army when they cannot have one. I thought that was easy enough to figure out. Edited August 3, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
jbg Posted August 3, 2014 Author Report Posted August 3, 2014 Can you name a few examples of irrational geopolitical actions Iran has committed since 1979?That's an unfair racial stereotype. Not all Arabs in Gaza are Hamas militants or supporters of Hamas. There are also Gazans who just want peace and are being blown up right now. I thought one of the arguments was that Hamas was democratically elected and was entitled to respect. if this is true the people got what they voted for. A war. Sucks if that war is ending badly. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted August 3, 2014 Author Report Posted August 3, 2014 I say it clear as can be. Palestinians have always had the choice of peace. They do not choose it. They cling to the belief they can take back all of Israel and Jordan and turn it into a Muslim caliphate. Nothing's changed since 1948. Not a damn thing, only the names of the idiots controlling the Palestinians and the IDF, it does what it has to do. It will not sit on its ass watching its people attacked just as you would not expect your country to abandon you if it was under attack. What bothers me alot is that the U.S. and other Western powers see the need to "broker" a partial surrender by the West. There is no reason for the surrender. Israel should be allowed to do its job, as a Western country. We should react the way the British did to the Battle of Britain. 1 - Israel won't allow Palestinians their own military. Uniforms are out of the question. 2 - It's a continuing occupation, resulting in only guerrilla terror like tactics. They cannot act like a standing army when they cannot have one. I thought that was easy enough to figure out. Are you saying that the Palestinians have a G-d given right to fight the Israelis? Maybe some groups just don't have that right. The American colonials were not "given" the righ to a standing army by the British. Yet they did not fight out of uniform and target civilian Tory suppporters of the Crown. There were lots of those. Trust me. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 facepalm Oh i was laughing at the mindless idiocy about the "left" wanting to harm the "west". Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 Oh i was laughing at the mindless idiocy about the "left" wanting to harm the "west".How is that mindless idiocy? The Islamist world is a font of anti-female, anti-gay and even anti-animal venom. The Left is generally in favor of gay and feminime rights, and animal rights. As am I in general. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 How is that mindless idiocy? The Islamist world is a font of anti-female, anti-gay and even anti-animal venom. The Left is generally in favor of gay and feminime rights, and animal rights. As am I in general. <facepalm/> Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 <facepalm/>A stock, predictable response at this point. I make serious points and you laugh at them. There is no good answer I've heard to the ridiculousness of the Left's love affair with Hamas. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 A stock, predictable response at this point. I make serious points and you laugh at them. There is no good answer I've heard to the ridiculousness of the Left's love affair with Hamas. Its a stock reponse for when people say really stupid things. The "left" has no love affair with Hamas. People realize that Israels behavior is guaranteed to provoke violence against it, and people understand that the kind of theft Israel is perpetrating against the population in the occupied territories is guaranteed to spawn extremist groups. That doesnt mean anyone likes any of these groups. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 Its a stock reponse for when people say really stupid things. The "left" has no love affair with Hamas. People realize that Israels behavior is guaranteed to provoke violence against it, and people understand that the kind of theft Israel is perpetrating against the population in the occupied territories is guaranteed to spawn extremist groups. That doesnt mean anyone likes any of these groups.If you were honest you would say that Israel's meere existence as a Jewish state guarantees violence against it. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) If you were honest you would say that Israel's meere existence as a Jewish state guarantees violence against it. Any state that did was Israel is doing would be the target of violence, regardless of its ethnic and religious demographics. Would matter if they were hispanic, black, nordic, or even a pleasant shade of mauve. The problem isnt that Israel is a Jewish state. The problem is its an asshole state thats engaging in cononialism by force about 100 years too late. Edited August 4, 2014 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 Any state that did was Israel is doing would be the target of violence, regardless of its ethnic and religious demographics. Would matter if they were hispanic, black, nordic, or even a pleasant shade of mauve. The problem isnt that Israel is a Jewish state. The problem is its an asshole state thats engaging in cononialism by force about 100 years too late. North Korea and Russia don't draw the same degree of condemnation for worse behavior. They're not "asshole" states? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 North Korea and Russia don't draw the same degree of condemnation for worse behavior. They're not "asshole" states? Russia and NK are asshole states as well, yes and they draw plenty of condemnation. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 Russia and NK are asshole states as well, yes and they draw plenty of condemnation.And the same amount of news coverage, editorialization and Mapleleafweb threads as Israel? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 And the same amount of news coverage, editorialization and Mapleleafweb threads as Israel? God not this whiny victim card trotted out again... Have Russia and NK been in a state of conflict for 60 years? Are they keeping millions of people stateless and in squallor while they plunder their land for resources? And "mapleleaf web threads"? REALLY? ROFLMAO. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) God not this whiny victim card trotted out again... Have Russia and NK been in a state of conflict for 60 years? Are they keeping millions of people stateless and in squallor while they plunder their land for resources?You got it and asked for it. As for Russia, entirely yes. And for NK the definitely keep their people in squalor. And "mapleleaf web threads"? REALLY? ROFLMAO.Just a flip example but someone representative. Edited August 4, 2014 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 You got it and asked for it. As for Russia, entirely yes. And for NK the definitely keep their people in squalor. Just a flip example but someone representative. Huh? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Moonlight Graham Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 Are you saying that the Palestinians have a G-d given right to fight the Israelis? Maybe some groups just don't have that right. The American colonials were not "given" the righ to a standing army by the British. Yet they did not fight out of uniform and target civilian Tory suppporters of the Crown. There were lots of those. Trust me. Israel nor Palestinians/Hamas have a right to target civilians. That said, Israel won't allow Palestinians n military and Israel will destroy it in 5 seconds during any conflict, such as the one happening right now. But Palestinians do have a right to defend themselves (though again, not through means of terror). You want Palestinians to be uniformed, but if they were they'd be destroyed within 5 seconds by Israel. So essentially you want Palestinians and Hamas to have no real fighting capabilities. I'm also guessing you don't want Palestinian militants/fighters/military of any kind to be able to hide amongst civilians because it's "cowardly" or "chicken" (but i'm assuming you don't think it's cowardly or chicken for IDF to drop bombs from jets 2000 ft above any possible threat). So here's what the Israeli gov & i'm assuming you also want: Any Palestinian fighters to be uniformed & out in the open & not hiding amongst civilians, and with little to no modern military weaponry that could hit Israel from range (missiles, rockets, mortars, tanks, navy, jets, nukes etc.). So basically you want them to be sitting ducks and destroyed within 5 seconds during any conflict. Meanwhile is it ok for Israel to have a well-funded state-of-the-art military and completely unregulated nukes? Sounds fair. "But Israel doesn't target civilians!". Bullshit we're seeing it right now. Also, If there's ever a 2-state solution, states need a military. But will a Palestinian state ever be allowed to build a modern military? How about nukes? Probably not, so I'm guessing the status quo works pretty good for Israel, so why would they EVER want 2-state solution? Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
jbg Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 (Neither) Israel nor Palestinians/Hamas have a right to target civilians.... I am going to respond in appropriate thread (link to response). I intended this thread to be about the West's overall squeamishness about protecting its accomplishments. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Rue Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 Dre you came on this thread and blame Israel for Hamas' existence and its decision to engage in terror. In so doing you make Hamas a victim and you blame Israel. Then you claim JBG is whining the victim card? This is precisely why your words have zero credibility. You create Hamas as a victim and then when someone argues Hamas is not a victim you accuse them of whining victim. It is the utmost in two faced hypocritical bias. Moonlight, in response to you, did it ever dawn on you the average Palestinian may not want a war with Israel and the decision to have a war does not express the popular will of Palestinians? Your scenario assumes they want a war with Israel and that they choose to be terrorist because they can't engage in a conventional war. In so doing you assume they want a conventional war let alone condone terrorism. How do you know this? You know its one thing for Dre to come on this board and pose as an expert on Hamas and try rationalize what they do is reasonable but you? What kind of argument says, its reasonable to engage in terrorism and get your own people killed because you will lose a conventional war? You really think Palestinians choose terrorism? How are you any different then, than the Israelis you think existent that think all Palestinians are terrorists? I challenge your statement and premises of it. I argue clearly, Palestinians are held hostage by Hamas and were ready for peace with Israel many years ago but were killed and bulled by Hamas into giving that thought up. I have Palestinian friends who fled here to Canada from Gaza and the West Bank. They do not hate Israel or Jews. They want a free state next to Jews. Dre does not speak for them and with respect to you because unlike Dre I respect your opinions as sincere and well stated, I think you are wrong on this one and I say it with respect. I know you do not hate anyone and are a peace lover and your criticism is meant to be constructive of Israel and you think their actions are self defeating and its a criticism that may be partially true, but I just do not think it is as black and white as you state it. I also concede I am very bias on this issue and you have a right to say so. Quote
GostHacked Posted August 5, 2014 Report Posted August 5, 2014 A stock, predictable response at this point. I make serious points and you laugh at them. There is no good answer I've heard to the ridiculousness of the Left's love affair with Hamas. Your statements are canned responses. Quote
Black Dog Posted August 5, 2014 Report Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) North Korea and Russia don't draw the same degree of condemnation for worse behavior. They're not "asshole" states? You don't see people defending them either. And the same amount of news coverage, editorialization and Mapleleafweb threads as Israel? What would those threads look like? "North Korea did something bad." "This is bad." "I agree, this is very bad." /thread Interestingly enough, I don't see you or any other cheerleaders for Israel starting those threads either. Why is that? Edited August 5, 2014 by Black Dog Quote
The_Squid Posted August 5, 2014 Report Posted August 5, 2014 And the same amount of news coverage, editorialization and Mapleleafweb threads as Israel? Why aren't you starting these threads? Are you not a member of this forum? Quote
jbg Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Posted August 5, 2014 Why aren't you starting these threads? Are you not a member of this forum?Who started this thread? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
The_Squid Posted August 5, 2014 Report Posted August 5, 2014 Who started this thread? Why aren't you starting threads about Russia? or North Korea? Stop acting as if you've been hard done by somehow because everyone is against Israel and not Russia or N. Korea. It's laughable. Quote
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