DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Do you read it in Arabic? Muhammad did not speak modern Arabic. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Of course, this is just a lark from you as you defend Islam. Indonesian Muslims do not speak Arabic...but I doubt you question their understanding of Islam. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) So with that out-of-the-way...what is the REAL meaning...in context...y'all love that word re: Islam...of Sura 9 verse 29? Let's review: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.https://quran.com/9:29 What does that mean??? Edited September 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) No...just Muslims. https://quran.com/9:29 The World is divided into two in Islam: Dar-al-Harb...land of war...and Dar-al-Islam...land of peace. Dar-al-Harb is ANYWHERE where Islam is not 100%. You may now explain this away... Yes the verse 9:29 also makes me confused when I read first but if we get it as an offensive order, it will contradict with all the other verses which forbids offensive actions. But It also mean "you dont have to fight them" but if you will have to fight them because of their agressive attitudes, fight them until they pay "jizyah". Here another question is what is "Jizyah". Translators says its a kind of "tax" based on stories, prophet was taking it in different times. But according to the dictionary meaning of the word, it means a kid of "war reparations" in response to the damage given to Muslims. So the stories cannot be a true source. According to its dictionary meaning, its war reparations. Edited September 7, 2016 by Altai Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Jizyah = tax paid by non-Muslims to avoid persecution. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 One more time: What does this mean? Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. https://quran.com/9:29 Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Jizyah = tax paid by non-Muslims to avoid persecution. It is derived from jzy, which means "paying the penalty". We also have a turkish word "Ceza", derives from the same root and means "penalty", not "tax". Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 One more time: What does this mean? Post 79 If you read the Surah from beginning, you will see that its not an order for an offensive act but an order to respond an offensive act. Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) Muhammad did not speak modern Arabic. So you don't read it in Arabic, but don't want to come out and say so. Why not? Anyway, even though we today cannot speak Medieval English, we can still understand (more or less) what Shakespeare and others of his time wrote. I bet if we then translated it to Arabic or Chinese or any other languages, nuances would be lost for those readers. I think modern Arabic speakers will have a better grasp on the Qu'ran, even if it's written in 'medieval Arabic' than you do. I think that since there is debate among Arabic speaking scholars and experts about what certain verses mean or don't mean, that your interpretation is one of the least reliable. In Christianity, there is a certain segment who believes polygamy (often along with oppression of women and pedophilia) is biblical, because it's in the old testament. Nonetheless, the majority of Christians do not believe that, and so we understand that while polygamy 'comes from the bible', it's also true that it's not part of mainstream Christianity. In terms of the 'fighting infidels' and 'violent jihad' that you and others like to claim is the mainstay of Islam, the majority of Muslims do not interpret those same verses in the same way. While such beliefs may come from the Qu'ran, in the way that polygamy comes from the Bible, it's not part of mainstream Muslim belief. And you may go on about abrogation if you wish, but again that is disputed among experts (which you are not) in scope and in accuracy. Thus, you again choose the interpretation which supports your belief. That is your choice, but that does not make it the only choice or even the right choice. Edited September 7, 2016 by dialamah Quote
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Of course, this is just a lark from you as you defend Islam. Indonesian Muslims do not speak Arabic...but I doubt you question their understanding of Islam. If they use to proselytize violence and terrorism, I sure do. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Which brings us to taqiya, kitman and idtirar. Which is what is happening here. I can read. I can read the Quran. I have read the Quran...I understand it just fine. But, apparently my eyes deceive me while I'm reading the Quran and I get the whole thing wrong...or need to read ancient Arabic to comprehend these BIG words...or need an expert to tell me what 'fight the unbeliever' really means. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
cybercoma Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 DOP, do you realize how it looks when you try to tell someone who speaks Arabic and follows Islam that they don't understand their own language and religion as well as you do even though you don't speak Arabic and are not Muslim? You're literally claiming to know this person's own experiences better than they do. It's like white people trying to tell black people how to be black. It's the definition of privilege when you can't just shut up and learn something from others' experiences because you're too wrapped up in your point of view being the only one that matters. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 DOP, do you realize how it looks when you try to tell someone who speaks Arabic and follows Islam that they don't understand their own language and religion as well as you do even though you don't speak Arabic and are not Muslim? You're literally claiming to know this person's own experiences better than they do. It's like white people trying to tell black people how to be black. It's the definition of privilege when you can't just shut up and learn something from others' experiences because you're too wrapped up in your point of view being the only one that matters. She Turkish...not Arab. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 And Islam is a religion/political system...not a race. Anybody...even Dog...can become a Muslim. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) Which brings us to taqiya, kitman and idtirar. Which is what is happening here. I can read. I can read the Quran. I have read the Quran...I understand it just fine. But, apparently my eyes deceive me while I'm reading the Quran and I get the whole thing wrong...or need to read ancient Arabic to comprehend these BIG words...or need an expert to tell me what 'fight the unbeliever' really means. This is part of whats wrong with the world today, people who believe their layman's opinions are facts even in the face of expertise. Think anti-vaxers, or even general labourers who decide they can build an entire house because they dug holes and watched jouneyman carpenters at work. Ridiculous.Perhaps you can explain to us, DoP, why you choose a violent interpretation when non-violent interpretations are available to you? Do you want more war with the Middle East? Edited September 7, 2016 by dialamah Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 This is part of whats wrong with the world today, people who believe their layman's opinions are right even in the face of expertise. Think anti-vaxers, or even general labourers who decide they can build an entire house because they dug holes and watched jouneyman carpenters at work. Ridiculous. So in order to understand Islam, one must be an expert in Islamic Jurisprudence? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 And to bring my last point to page 7...Islam is a religion/political system. Not a race of people. Even Dog can become a Muslim. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 So in order to understand Islam, one must be an expert in Islamic Jurisprudence? It is your choice to believe as you do. Your interpretation is not more valid than anyone else's, it is less valid than any experts, it is less valid than any Muslim. The only arena in which your interpretation of Islam has any weight is among violent extremists. Quote
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 And to bring my last point to page 7...Islam is a religion/political system. Not a race of people. Even Dog can become a Muslim. If you did, would you join ISIS since their interpretation agrees with yours? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) It is your choice to believe as you do. Your interpretation is not more valid than anyone else's, it is less valid than any experts, it is less valid than any Muslim. The only arena in which your interpretation of Islam has any weight is among violent extremists. What does an expert in Islam look like? So...in your world...Dog can not become a Muslim since it is impossible for Dog to understand the hidden message contained within? What am I not understanding properly about the Quran and the Life of Muhammad? If you did, would you join ISIS since their interpretation agrees with yours? Is their interpretation incorrect? Why? Edited September 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Read slowly: you choose to intrepret Islam a certain way. Others choose to intrepret it in a different way. It doesn't matter if you become Muslim or not, you still have a variety of interpretations to choose from. You choose an interpretation more similar to ISIS than to Altai's or any Muslim I am personally acquainted with. That is your choice. That interpretation is not supported by the majority of Muslims, nor most experts. Nonetheless you keep claiming its the only correct one. Done on this now, you can stop squirming. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Read slowly: you choose to intrepret Islam a certain way. Others choose to intrepret it in a different way. It doesn't matter if you become Muslim or not, you still have a variety of interpretations to choose from. You choose an interpretation more similar to ISIS than to Altai's or any Muslim I am personally acquainted with. That is your choice. That interpretation is not supported by the majority of Muslims, nor most experts. Nonetheless you keep claiming its the only correct one. Done on this now, you can stop squirming. What is the peaceful version of Sura 9 Verse 29? Can you link to one, please? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Your entire argument hinges on this peaceful version of Islam existing. Just to be clear. I'm not reading an 'extremist' Quran/Hadiths...for example. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
The_Squid Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 What is the peaceful version of Sura 9 Verse 29? Can you link to one, please? Why is it any different than the violent passages in the bible? Most people ignore those violent passages in both religions. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Why is it any different than the violent passages in the bible? Most people ignore those violent passages in both religions. The Quran is the VERY word of Allah as opposed to the Bible which is a collection of tales with human authors. The Quran forbids altering its words in any way....being perfect from the beginning. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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