Malaysian Airliner Reportedly Shot Down in east Ukraine

[ASIP]

it’s not unreasonable to assume (since both Russia and Ukraine have mandatory national service) that both groups of rebels have personal with former military service.

It is absolutely unreasonable to assume that an alcoholic or a thug (this is the local content of the rebels) could score a hit from a complex anti-aircraft system, which he never used when served in the armed forces.

I would gladly withdraw my objections if you give me some statistics on Buk exercises in Ukrainian army recently and show me at least one former Buk operator among rebels. By the way, how many people is required to launch a Buk missile?

Is there any proof to indicate that?

Yep. Telephone intercepts, photos and videos.

[Derek 2.0]

And if he wasn't doing anything at all, you'd probably be one of the people blaming him for not doing anything at all!

Not at all......

[Derek 2.0]

Yes, I would like to hear solutions from Derek.

If the Europeans can’t be bothered with sanctions, why should the rest of the World?

[WestCoastRunner]

If the Europeans can’t be bothered with sanctions, why should the rest of the World?

And so the rest of the world should follow the Europeans example? And you don't know that yet. Not after this one.

[ASIP]

The Ukrainians likely don’t know…….they have been loosing military equipment without a trace, hand over fist since the end of the Cold War……this only escalated when the tensions started in the Ukraine last year.

Wow, you know a fact of a big anti-aircraft missile lost by the Ukrainian army? Please tell us!

[Signals.Cpl]

No, it wasn't stolen, it was given to them, by Russia. No rag-tag rebels stole anything. And many of these rag-tag rebels are trained by Russian special forces. Why is it that Russia can do no wrong at all in your eyes?

How are you so sure that the separatists did not capture the weapon system? They seem to be doing pretty well in capturing Ukrainian equipment.

[Derek 2.0]

And so the rest of the world should follow the Europeans example? And you don't know that yet. Not after this one.

Do you suggest we should follow the natural progression of failed diplomacy, devoid of European participation, to it’s full extent over a airliner shot down?

[Signals.Cpl]

Tons. Rebels have been using Russian AA systems to shoot down Ukranian transport planes for several weeks now. With good success.

I dont know if you notice that both sides are using "Russian" equipment... the BUK system is not American or Canadian its Russian.

[Derek 2.0]

How are you so sure that the separatists did not capture the weapon system? They seem to be doing pretty well in capturing Ukrainian equipment.

And of course, Ukrainian army units have joined the separatists wholesale……..bad things tend to happen with a broke army.

[ASIP]

Of course they could....

You have no idea what you are talking about.

And they did.

When? Where? Are you sure you are not dreaming?

Edited July 19, 2014 by ASIP

[Signals.Cpl]

If you're looking for a parallel to global conflict. I see it in the fact the western powers allowed Putin to annex part of Ukraine just like they let Hitler annex part of Czechoslovakia in the 30's.

At what point is this rebel land grab too much? Do they have to invade Kiev before some says enough?

Who do you think is going to stop Russia? Do you think Europe is in a position to stop anyone?

[ASIP]

And you of course have evidence.

I've just reported official information from the chief of Ukrainian security service. The telephone calls are on youtube.

[The_Squid]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

When? Where? Are you sure you are not dreaming?

Did you read the link I provided?

[WestCoastRunner]

I've just reported official information from the chief of Ukrainian security service. The telephone calls are on youtube.

link please

[ASIP]

And of course, Ukrainian army units have joined the separatists wholesale……..bad things tend to happen with a broke army.

This never happened. Ukrainian army is in no way broken. Quite an opposite is the case.

[Derek 2.0]

Who do you think is going to stop Russia? Do you think Europe is in a position to stop anyone?

Exactly, Putin has most of Western Europe over the barrel, but of course, both the failed energy and defence policies of the Western Europeans have resulted in a emboldened Russian foreign policy…….

Clearly the rest of the World shouldn’t be obligated to go upon this garden path for a third time in 100 years, if the Europeans themselves can’t be bothered.

[Signals.Cpl]

It was either rebels or Russian troops themselves, because apparently it was shot down with a Russian Buk launcher. The same kind of weapon used to down several Ukranian transport planes over the last several weeks.

How do you know it was a Russian Buk system and not a Ukrainian Buk system? After all the separatists have overran a number of Ukrainian bases.

[ASIP]

Did you read the link I provided?

I did. Oh, I see, you probably don't know the difference between a "missile" and a "missile launcher" . The rebels really got access to a junk yard with the remains of that launcher, but you claimed they took missiles. With no missile you cannot shoot down the plane. Right?

[Signals.Cpl]

ThIs is not true. Rebels took no Buk missiles from any military base. They absolutely could not do that.

Entire Ukrainian units have surrendered and a number of bases have been overrun what makes you so sure they could not have captured?

[The_Squid]

I did. Oh, I see, you probably don't know the difference between a "missile" and a "missile launcher" . The rebels really got access to a junk yard with the remains of that launcher, but you claimed they took missiles. With no missile you cannot shoot down the plane. Right?

BUK missile launcher is what the rebels have.

[WestCoastRunner]

We need proof who brought the plane down.

[ASIP]

How are you so sure that the separatists did not capture the weapon system? They seem to be doing pretty well in capturing Ukrainian equipment.

Big anti-aircraft systems like the Buk are "items of special control." They are heavily observed. If there is an immediate possibility of capture, a gurd unit must destroy them. There was no report of capture of any working Buk system even by rebels. After the aircraft crash, the Ukrainian army confirmed that all Buk missiles are in place.

[Derek 2.0]

We need proof who brought the plane down.

Agreed 100%.

[Signals.Cpl]

This is impossible scenario.

Have you ever seen a control station inside the Buk launcher vehicle? I bet you have not. A launch (and a hit) can be conducted only by a trained crew. Especially when not having support from the two big radars normally used for firing. They must be professionals.

This crew of three officers arrived from Russia together with the vehicle and missiles. Ukrainians intercepted a telephone call of the trucker who delivered the vehicle across the Ukrainian border. The trucker was asking about further instructions. When asked he confirmed that the crew is near the vehicle.

Of course, they shot down the plane not recognizing it was civilian. It could be due to limited capabilities of the systems in the launcher vehicle.

You do realize that there are millions of individuals with military experience due to conscription? Not all of those conscripts and former conscripts are on the side of Ukraine so I doubt it would be too hard to find qualified and trained individuals to man any captured weapons.

[ASIP]

link please

Do you understand Russian speech?