Multiculturalism in Canada - Does it Unite or Divide?

[Argus]

Of course we wouldnt have them.

You think every pizza joint is owned by an Italian?

[Argus]

Immigration is also helping to reduce crime in Canada

-crime is linked with education

-immigrants from the largest source countries are under-represented in our prisons

That tends to be true. On the other hand, immigrants from other places are overrepresented in our prisons and have much higher unemployment rates than Canadians.

And one of the things which the government has taken note of is their desire to bring in more people with university degrees has not helped the economic performance of immigrants, which continues to deteriorate. The reason should have been obvious from the start. The more complex the job, the more important your language skills. A carpenter can get by with little or no English. Not so for highly skilled, highly paid professions. They need first rate English skills. Having a degree without the communications skills necessary to get hired in that profession means we have engineers driving taxis.

[Argus]

The thing is if we didnt have immigration our population would be receding so there would be little new housing starts if any.

I just read in MH's cite that 2/3s of population growt came from immigrants. That pretty strongly suggests that if there were no immigrants our population would still be growing.

Our standard of life is support in part by the fact we are always building to accomodate an increasing population. Houses, apartment buildings, roads, bridges, retail stores, etc etc. A whole lot of us make our livings from this activity.

That would make immigration a ponzi scheme which will inevitably fail.

What about countries which have comparatively very low immigration yet are doing well economically?

In addition to that, in order to provide public services the government is borrowing against the assumption that the population will keep growing,

Then they ought to stop borrowing and balance the budget.

[Argus]

About as childish as your constant rants and generalizations about "the left" and "liberals" maybe?

Cite? I generally give reasons for what I say other than "I'm so happy when they're sad!"

[Black Dog]

What I'm attempting to do is point out the disingenuousness of two contradictory beliefs evidenced by immigration enthusiasts.

1. It's perfectly normal for people from other countries to want to live among people who are like them (like calls to like was your statement, I believe) where people are of their culture and speak their language.

2. Any English Canadian who feels such things is a xenophobic bigot, probably a racist, and should be expelled from Canada. So naturally, immigration enthusiasts NEVER feel such things.

Couple of issues:

#1, understanding why people group together with those who share language/culture/values is not the same thing as endorsing it or promoting it. I'm still waiting for some concrete examples of how a policy that recognizes and values diversity leads to immigrant ghettos. Also, I'm not convinced that people who are enthusiastic about immigration and multiculturalism are as enthusiastic about ghettoization as you say they are.

#2 The person in your second example would apparently not understand that much (indeed most) of the country is made up if white anglophone enclaves. So there needs are already being met.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Black Dog

[Michael Hardner]

You think every pizza joint is owned by an Italian?

They're mostly Chinese people now. But if it wasn't for the Greeks selling them the franchises after imitating the Italians...

Wait - isn't this supposed to be proving that immigrants *don't* create ethnic food ?

How many Scottish Canadians would have stepped up to put together an Ethiopian restaurant ?

[Argus]

You're edging close to the 'fixed pie fallacy' here. The pie is big enough to handle more eaters, ie. there's economic value to this arrangement.

GDP and income are linked. Unemployment rates and cost of living are related to a bunch of economic factors, not just immigration.

No, you're missing the point. Let's say you have a pie with six slices, and six people eating it. Four more people arrive, but you have a bigger pie. It now has ten slices. The result is no improement for the people who were already there. The same goes for GDP. A bigger economy but more people does not suggest any great improvement in the economic fortunes of existing citizens. A bigger GDP with the same number of people, would, however.

[Black Dog]

You think the Citizenship test is a good indication of how much of a Canadian you are?

Probably more than a birth certificate, no?

[Black Dog]

You think every pizza joint is owned by an Italian?

You think we'd have pizza joints if we didn't at some point let Italians in and allow them to live together?

[Michael Hardner]

No, you're missing the point. Let's say you have a pie with six slices, and six people eating it. Four more people arrive, but you have a bigger pie. It now has ten slices. The result is no improement for the people who were already there.

Your analogy makes no sense without referring to the size of the pie in some measurable quantity, ie. weight. A 600 gram pie grows to, say 1010 grams when the other 4 people arrive from the stats I have seen.

The same goes for GDP. A bigger economy but more people does not suggest any great improvement in the economic fortunes of existing citizens. A bigger GDP with the same number of people, would, however.

Existing citizens prosper in many ways - more demand for their goods and services, for example.

[Michael Hardner]

You think we'd have pizza joints if we didn't at some point let Italians in and allow them to live together?

You mean, live with other Italians ?

Edited to add: I had an Italian room mate once... played the soccer game too loud...

[Argus]

There are other factors that could be significant too.

What if a statistical analysis showed that gay males do better than other groups - would we then fast-track gay males into Canada ? If we're talking utility here, then why should country or religion alone be considered.

I'm not suggesting economic performance is the ONLY reason to assess immigrants, but it ought to be a very important factor if the justification for immigration is an economic one. I also believe social cohesion ought to be an important consideration in that, if there is a choice, it would be better to bring in immigrants who are as much like us as possible. The cites provided so far indicate these are also the highest performing immigrants in economic terms, which suggests the ability to smoothly integrate into the fabric of our society plays a major role in an immigrant's economic success.

[PoliticalAtheist]

The point has been already made that multiculturalism fosters social cohesion in a country that has high immigration.

really? having people utterly unlike yourslelf, with language barriers, fundamental religious differences, different mores and behavioural differences makes for better group cohesion? I'd be grateful if you could produce the evidence for such a claim... eveyr second study these days seems to be pointing to the exact opposite.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=S_4gAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=multiculturalism+failed+mistrust&source=bl&ots=IuKLiw8qyN&sig=t-qohe_8QALKfXUiIJH_ZYQ42xE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oB_AU5LaI5GiyASckYKgAw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=multiculturalism%20failed%20mistrust&f=false

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/afshin-shahi/failure-of-british-multiculturalism-and-virtue-of-reciprocity

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

then there was our own survey:

http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p2SV.pl?Function=getSurvey&SDDS=4508

that determined that immigrants from the 90's prefer their own culture, that 78% do not wan to assimilate or participate in canadian life (other than in an economic pursuit), that 88% are happy to associate as much as possible primarily with members of their own ethnicity etc...

[guyser]

You think every pizza joint is owned by an Italian?

Nope

But they came here and started them, people liked them, learned how to do so and...voila.

[Argus]

#2 The person in your second example would apparently not understand that much (indeed most) of the country is made up if white anglophone enclaves. So there needs are already being met.

Is that true any more except perhaps on a geographic basis? I'm quite sure vast tracts of the country are mostly inhabited by whites. These would be rural areas, of course. But if you look at the major cities where the majority of Canadians live that does not seem to be the case.

Also, take note that this is not a white/non-white issue. I'm not speaking about skin pigmentation, even if it is true that the vast majority of 'newcomers' are non-white.

[Argus]

Probably more than a birth certificate, no?

No. I'm sure that if I study for a bit I can answer a bunch of questions about China and its history. Would that make me Chinese? I wouldn't really have much of a feel for the culture, would I? Not to mention speaking no Chinese, which would mean it would take me a long while to grasp any of the subtleties of living there.

I'm sure these tests are a good idea, for lack of anything else. But I'm equally sure you don't become one with a culture a year or two after stepping off the plane, especially if you don't speak any of the language when you hit the ground.

[dre]

You're edging close to the 'fixed pie fallacy' here. The pie is big enough to handle more eaters, ie. there's economic value to this arrangement.

GDP and income are linked. Unemployment rates and cost of living are related to a bunch of economic factors, not just immigration.

Unemployment rates are INCREASED by immigration EVEN THOUGH immigrants have a lower unemployment rate. The important factor though is not immigration though its population growth. Immigration is just how our government achieves that at the present time. They wouldnt need to do that if our birth rate was higher.

Its pretty simple really. I own a business that builds spec homes in the town I live in. If I thought the population was going to shrink I wouldnt build a single one. That means I wont employ anyone, that also means I wont purchase all the materials to build those homes and hire all the contractors I would have. That means that all of those people will have less money to spend into the economy as well. That means OTHER businesses going bankrupt or downsizing as well.

[Black Dog]

Is that true any more except perhaps on a geographic basis? I'm quite sure vast tracts of the country are mostly inhabited by whites. These would be rural areas, of course. But if you look at the major cities where the majority of Canadians live that does not seem to be the case.

"Seem to be?" Surely this is the kind of thing you could prove one way or the other. If the issue is ethnic enclaves, then logically that means there will be areas that are still majority white/English speaking/native born.

Also, take note that this is not a white/non-white issue. I'm not speaking about skin pigmentation, even if it is true that the vast majority of 'newcomers' are non-white.

Sure. But there's plenty of diversity in culture/values among English speakers as well. I guess I'm still trying to find a baseline for the common culture you say is shared by all native born English speakers.

Also, going back to your two point statement, I'm still waiting for you to prove that those are "beliefs evidenced by immigration enthusiasts."

No. I'm sure that if I study for a bit I can answer a bunch of questions about China and its history. Would that make me Chinese? I wouldn't really have much of a feel for the culture, would I? Not to mention speaking no Chinese, which would mean it would take me a long while to grasp any of the subtleties of living there.

I'm sure these tests are a good idea, for lack of anything else. But I'm equally sure you don't become one with a culture a year or two after stepping off the plane, especially if you don't speak any of the language when you hit the ground.

The point I was attempting to make wasn't about the efficacy of citizenship exams as it was that being born in a place is no indicator you're going to have a clue about it's history, values, etc.

M make was l

Edited July 11, 2014 by Black Dog

[Michael Hardner]

The cites provided so far indicate these are also the highest performing immigrants in economic terms, which suggests the ability to smoothly integrate into the fabric of our society plays a major role in an immigrant's economic success.

Right ... but it's not a wide open question as to what factors are/should be considered.

[Michael Hardner]

really? having people utterly unlike yourslelf, with language barriers, fundamental religious differences, different mores and behavioural differences makes for better group cohesion?

You're talking about immigration generally now, not multiculturalism. You're talking about having people in the country - that's immigration.

Then you link into the middle of a long book about Multiculturalism, where they are making a point about Britain and Canada. It's easy to link to individual studies - you should do that.

The second link is an opinion piece... I am not interested. You have been asked for evidence of specific claims, not anecdotes....

Example - "I was still a teenager when I moved to Britain from Iran. From the very early stages of my social exposure to British society I came across the notion of multiculturalism... "

[PoliticalAtheist]

You're talking about immigration generally now, not multiculturalism. You're talking about having people in the country - that's immigration.

Then you link into the middle of a long book about Multiculturalism, where they are making a point about Britain and Canada. It's easy to link to individual studies - you should do that.

The second link is an opinion piece... I am not interested. You have been asked for evidence of specific claims, not anecdotes....

Example - "I was still a teenager when I moved to Britain from Iran. From the very early stages of my social exposure to British society I came across the notion of multiculturalism... "

what about the canadian survey? seriously? lol unreal

[carepov]

What I'm attempting to do is point out the disingenuousness of two contradictory beliefs evidenced by immigration enthusiasts.

1. It's perfectly normal for people from other countries to want to live among people who are like them (like calls to like was your statement, I believe) where people are of their culture and speak their language.

2. Any English Canadian who feels such things is a xenophobic bigot, probably a racist, and should be expelled from Canada. So naturally, immigration enthusiasts NEVER feel such things.

These are two very good points.

I will elaborate on point #2. You are correct, not all Canadians that criticize multiculturalism and feel that our immigration numbers are way too high are xenophobic racist bigot. I certainly do not consider you to be one. However, many are, and certainly almost all Canadian racist-bigoted-xenophobes criticize multiculturalism and feel that our immigration numbers are way too high.

Similarly, not all immigrants from non-Western countries have the negative stereotypical characteristics that have been assigned to them, including their supposed difficulty or resistance in adapting to Canadian society. The Canadian immigration system should continue to judge applicants based on their individual qualities (education, employability, language, etc...), not on the stereotypes of the country that they belong to.

[carepov]

Folklore festivals paid for by liquor boards?

Sure. It is a benefit to all those that attend, participate and profit from related econimic activity.

[Michael Hardner]

what about the canadian survey? seriously? lol unreal

Why don't you start again... make a point, then give a link to back it up. You basically backed up when you posted this:

"really? having people utterly unlike yourslelf, with language barriers, fundamental religious differences, different mores and behavioural differences makes for better group cohesion?"

Those questions call immigration itself into question.

If we accept that immigration is a desirable policy to have (as pretty much every nation on earth has done) then policies of tolerance and acceptance obviously create a more welcoming atmosphere to immigrants. Does that need to be proven ?

Official Multiculturalism may incorporate policies that are worthy of discussion, though.

[carepov]

so yes they come here with bogus medical degrees from egypt... and end up driving taxis...

You are new so may not have read presious threads that included a study of the prison population of Canada broken down by race. You also missed the refutation of ther Fraser report.

Tip: You will have beter luck in continuing a conversation with shorter posts and fewer sarcastic/rhetorical questions and a more respectful tone.