Time to Phase Out Whales in Captivity

[eyeball]

I don't entirely disagree with the appreciation for nature theory but I do think people should be made aware of the fact that many orcas are killed, injured, and traumatized during the process of capturing them for our viewing pleasure.

Then let's see how supportive and appreciative they feel.

[segnosaur]

I don't entirely disagree with the appreciation for nature theory but I do think people should be made aware of the fact that many orcas are killed, injured, and traumatized during the process of capturing them for our viewing pleasure.

Then let's see how supportive and appreciative they feel.

Yes, there are problems with capturing whales.

But a few things should be remembered:

- Most killer whales in captivity were not born in the wild and captured (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_captive_orcas)

- As I mentioned before, any potential trauma animals in captivity (or even trauma from being captured) should be weighed against the lack of trauma they would sustain from being in the wild (where the whales often suffer injury at the hands of sharks and other prey. Killer whales may be an apex predator but prey animals can often defend themselves.)

Now, in the past it was thought that Killer Whales lived shorter lifespans in captivity than in the wild. However, the most recent research has showed that the lifespans are roughly equivalent (partly due to improved husbandry techniques).

From: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-01-25/news/os-seaworld-killer-whales-survival-20140125_1_killer-whales-individual-whales-orcas

...annual survival rate for captive whales had improved to about 98 percent in the past decade, based on data through November 2013.

...newer data indicate that captive-born whales, in particular, appear to be surviving at about the same rate as wild whales.

[eyeball]

Yes, there are problems with capturing whales.

But a few things should be remembered:

- Most killer whales in captivity were not born in the wild and captured (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_captive_orcas)

True enough.

- As I mentioned before, any potential trauma animals in captivity (or even trauma from being captured) should be weighed against the lack of trauma they would sustain from being in the wild (where the whales often suffer injury at the hands of sharks and other prey. Killer whales may be an apex predator but prey animals can often defend themselves.)

This doesn't seem very weighty to me and I'm sure both of us would hate to see what sort of perverse bleeding heart mentality might evolve within some branch of a government licencing agency whose job it was to give any weight to this argument.

Now, in the past it was thought that Killer Whales lived shorter lifespans in captivity than in the wild. However, the most recent research has showed that the lifespans are roughly equivalent (partly due to improved husbandry techniques).

Further to the above this would suggest that whatever trauma it is that killer whales might need rescuing from in the wild it isn't enough to show up in the mortality research data. I would suggest the public will likelier give more weight to arguments that point to a quality of life that wild populations seem to enjoy in the wild and do a lot more to improve the quality of life for those in captivity. If you've ever seen a pod celebrate after a kill or the one lucky time I watched a family just after the apparent birth of calf you might feel even less enthusiasm for capturing them . Especially after you've seen that calf when it's grown into a juvenile and later on as sub-adult on subsequent encounters with the same gang. They become like old friends, like the smelly old grey whale I've been watching for year after year after year...

From: http://articles.orla...al-whales-orcas

...annual survival rate for captive whales had improved to about 98 percent in the past decade, based on data through November 2013.

...newer data indicate that captive-born whales, in particular, appear to be surviving at about the same rate as wild whales.

Your own link also says...

Captive whales were dying at a rate of more than 6 percent a year, close to three times the rate at which wild whales were dying.

This doesn't sound like good news for wild orcas if the captive population growth can't keep up to demand.

It's pretty clear the issue of whales in captivity primarily revolves around the captivity of orca. Other types of dolphin, beluga's or porpoise don't evoke the same sort of human sentiments that orca do. I suspect that's because of the perception and public awareness of how very clannish and family oriented orca are. They're like us in a sense we easily identify with and they even evoke a longing and envy for the sort of wild savage freedom many imagine they must enjoy. I wouldn't be surprised if most toothed whales live in social groups that are bound as tightly. Heck I even lay awake at night trying not to think about all the families of long-lived rock-fish that are known to mate for life that I've traumatized and killed.

I might be able to get behind a push to transform aquariums into the far larger habitat's that were suggested above for existing captive populations, if it could be shown that doing so improves their quality of life. I suspect doing so would probably bring their mortality rate into a better alignment with their wild kin too. OTOH larger orca habitats could increase the demand for more to the point that impacts wild populations so I'm a little reluctant to get too enthusiastic about it.

[waldo]

The problem is, not everyone will have the ability to see such creatures "in the wild"... A person wishing to see (for example) a killer whale will have to travel all the way to the coast, plus possibly rent a boat (not everyone can afford that). And after all that you run the risk of the whale being a "no show".

Hopefully, a person will go down to the local aquarium or zoo, see the whale/dolphin/lion/godzilla there, come to the appreciation of how impressive the animals are there, and use it as an educational experience in order to get people to treat the environment better as a whole.

When the only experience people have with animals is their pet cat, and the idea of "whale" is of an animal thousands of miles away, a person could become apathetic towards nature.

I've been fortunate to actually see a wolverine while hiking in YoHo... a grizzly several times now while in Banff/Lake Louise. I've watched a mother/calf humpback resting on the ocean floor... had dozens of dolphin encounters... been within the midst of 20+ eagle rays, experienced manta-rays up close, touched a whale-shark, experienced reef sharks 'galore', etc.. As much as those experiences and associated images are imprinted in my memory, none of those images can compare with the wildlife photography presented in, for example, the just completed CBC Nature of Things 'Wild Canada' 5-part series. There is nothing a zoo/aquarium can present that can compare to that photography. There is nothing a zoo/aquarium can present to match wildlife photography... in the wild.

[Shady]

I disagree. I think whale captivity should not be phased out. As long as the facilities housing them are able to provide them with the appropriate accommodations. I think more effort should be made to end whale hunting. Zoos and aquariums are a pittance.

[waldo]

I disagree. I think whale captivity should not be phased out. As long as the facilities housing them are able to provide them with the appropriate accommodations.

to you, what is an appropriate whale accommodation?

[Smallc]

These species:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_in_the_Wild

And many more would no longer exist if not for zoos.

[WestCoastRunner]

I disagree. I think whale captivity should not be phased out. As long as the facilities housing them are able to provide them with the appropriate accommodations. I think more effort should be made to end whale hunting. Zoos and aquariums are a pittance.

Why do you disagree? And how do you measure appropriate accommodations? If we continue to accommodate these mammals, animals, birds etc in aquariums and zoos, the unscrupulous methods of capturing them will not stop.

[WestCoastRunner]

These species:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_in_the_Wild

And many more would no longer exist if not for zoos.

I agree that we should have rehabilitations for injured or species that are endangered. Once they are bred or rehabilitated, they should be let back into the wild unless they would not survive. We should not keep them penned up, solely for the profits of these zoos and aquariums.

[WestCoastRunner]

I've been fortunate to actually see a wolverine while hiking in YoHo... a grizzly several times now while in Banff/Lake Louise. I've watched a mother/calf humpback resting on the ocean floor... had dozens of dolphin encounters... been within the midst of 20+ eagle rays, experienced manta-rays up close, touched a whale-shark, experienced reef sharks 'galore', etc.. As much as those experiences and associated images are imprinted in my memory, none of those images can compare with the wildlife photography presented in, for example, the just completed CBC Nature of Things 'Wild Canada' 5-part series. There is nothing a zoo/aquarium can present that can compare to that photography. There is nothing a zoo/aquarium can present to match wildlife photography... in the wild.

Wonderful!

[On Guard for Thee]

I used to fly out of Tuktoyaktuk and in the spring over Kugmallit Bay the Belugas came in to feed and I swear you could have walked across the water on their backs. We used to adjust our departure not to make a lot of noise over them. I would never have thought to go grab one and throw it in a pool for school kids to come a look at. We should be able to do better.

[WestCoastRunner]

I used to fly out of Tuktoyaktuk and in the spring over Kugmallit Bay the Belugas came in to feed and I swear you could have walked across the water on their backs. We used to adjust our departure not to make a lot of noise over them. I would never have thought to go grab one and throw it in a pool for school kids to come a look at. We should be able to do better.

If we could show kids videos of these scenarios, they would be more inclined to get out and explore the world as they get older, instead of heading to the local aquarium where they get the wrong message, that it is ok to keep these mammals in captivity.

[On Guard for Thee]

If we could show kids videos of these scenarios, they would be more inclined to get out and explore the world as they get older, instead of heading to the local aquarium where they get the wrong message, that it is ok to keep these mammals in captivity.

Exactly. With the technology we have now we should send people out and visit, study, film and in scientific ways monitor these lovely beasts in their own ":hometown" Now I know this will sound maudlin, but oh what the hell. I recall sailing my boat down Biscayne Bay one time, my gf at the helm whilst I stood at the bow. Next thing there are a bunch of dolphins swimming along in the bow wave. I was pretty much buzzing as I held the headstay and I swear one of those boys rolled on his side and made eye contact with me. For whjatever reeason that is a moment I will treasure forever. Leave those guys in Biscayne Bay I say.

[WestCoastRunner]

Leave those guys in Biscayne Bay I say.

And leave the inhumane ways that are used to capture these mammals behind. Let's move forward in society. We should be able to live side by side with nature. Why do we need to capture them and put them on display.

[On Guard for Thee]

And leave the inhumane ways that are used to capture these mammals behind. Let's move forward in society. We should be able to live side by side with nature. Why do we need to capture them and put them on display.

I don't know if you are familiar with Dr. John Lily?

[WestCoastRunner]

I don't know if you are familiar with Dr. John Lily?

I am not. Who is that?

[On Guard for Thee]

I am not. Who is that?

He is a doctor of various qualifications, and a writer as well. He is also maybe a bit of a crazy guy who did a lot of LSD in his time, and he came up with the concept of deprivation tanks, which I have had a crack at in my time. Anyway, in a book called "Mind of The Dolphin" he describes his marine research center in the Carribean where any kind of marine mammal can swim into and out of, at their leisure owing to the layout of the place. He was especially looking for dolphins and he got lots. They were never in captivity, they just chose to visit. I wont spoil the book by saying more in case you choose to read it. But in any case it brought into focus for me the idea if we want to know stuff about them, we should go to them, not lock them up.

[WestCoastRunner]

They were never in captivity, they just chose to visit.

This is interesting. It reminds me of these resort places that have these 'swim with the dolphins' programs. Some of these programs have dolphins that were captured and taken away from their families in the wild and are now put on display to please the tourists. It's a sad state of affairs.

[On Guard for Thee]

This is interesting. It reminds me of these resort places that have these 'swim with the dolphins' programs. Some of these programs have dolphins that were captured and taken away from their families in the wild and are now put on display to please the tourists. It's a sad state of affairs.

No this was not for tourists. This was reaearch only. There was no captivity. Some days porps would show up, other days not. One thing I recall that was interesting: a sound recorder was constantly on and it capture the sounds of the researchers speaking to the dolphins as well as the dolphin sounds. When they messed around with those tapes and slowed them down, they discovered the dolphins mimiced the humans, not unlije a parrot might.

[WestCoastRunner]

No this was not for tourists. This was reaearch only. There was no captivity. Some days porps would show up, other days not. One thing I recall that was interesting: a sound recorder was constantly on and it capture the sounds of the researchers speaking to the dolphins as well as the dolphin sounds. When they messed around with those tapes and slowed them down, they discovered the dolphins mimiced the humans, not unlije a parrot might.

Oh sorry, I understood this wasn't for tourists. I didn't mean to imply that. Dolphins do mimic humans, it's well documented and just goes to show, that these intelligent mammals should not be captured and put on display.

[On Guard for Thee]

Oh sorry, I understood this wasn't for tourists. I didn't mean to imply that. Dolphins do mimic humans, it's well documented and just goes to show, that these intelligent mammals should not be captured and put on display.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly

[segnosaur]

- Most killer whales in captivity were not born in the wild and captured

True enough.

Here's a question for you...

You stated that killer whales were killed during the process of trying to capture them...

Do you have any proof or evidence of that happening (recently)? I had assumed you were correct, since it doesn't seem that far fetched to think of incompetent marine "researchers" doing things they don't have the qualifications to do. Just wondering if you had any numbers or actual reports to confirm that.

- As I mentioned before, any potential trauma animals in captivity (or even trauma from being captured) should be weighed against the lack of trauma they would sustain from being in the wild (where the whales often suffer injury at the hands of sharks and other prey. Killer whales may be an apex predator but prey animals can often defend themselves.)

This doesn't seem very weighty to me and I'm sure both of us would hate to see what sort of perverse bleeding heart mentality might evolve within some branch of a government licencing agency whose job it was to give any weight to this argument.

Not really sure what your problem with that point was.

No, I don't think there should be some "government department of whale happiness". I'm also not suggesting each and every whale would be better off in captivity. My point was that whales CAN get sick or injured in the wild. Those cause trauma. Whales living in captivity aren't subject to those stresses.

...annual survival rate for captive whales had improved to about 98 percent in the past decade, based on data through November 2013.

Your own link also says...

Captive whales were dying at a rate of more than 6 percent a year, close to three times the rate at which wild whales were dying.

Yes it does. But, the operative word in that sentence is "were" (as in past tense).

I've already admitted that there were problems with keeping whales in captivity in the past. But as our knowledge has improved, husbandry techniques have gotten better, and the survival rates of whales in captivity has also improved.

It's pretty clear the issue of whales in captivity primarily revolves around the captivity of orca. Other types of dolphin, beluga's or porpoise don't evoke the same sort of human sentiments that orca do. I suspect that's because of the perception and public awareness of how very clannish and family oriented orca are.

I think its because they look more impressive and powerful, and have more of a mystique about them.

They're like us in a sense we easily identify with and they even evoke a longing and envy for the sort of wild savage freedom many imagine they must enjoy.

Again though, that seems to be anthropromorphising animals, assigning them human characteristics that likely don't have.

Take for example the zebra. Some might claim that they long for the "freedom" of galloping magestically across the plains of Africa, rather than being stuck in a zoo. What people fail to understand is that when that zebra is galloping, its likely not doing so because it enjoys the wind in its face, but because its being chased by a predator, a stress that I suspect most Zebras would rather avoid (and one that they won't have to worry about in a zoo).

The same with killer whales... They are intelligent animals, and as a predator they require significant mental stimulation. But, they're "freedom" is likewise filled with risks. Earlier on you claimed that Killer Whales "celebrated" a successful hunt. But that's probably less a case of "Look what I managed to do" and more a case of "Whew, survived another close call. Glad I didn't get injured".

[quote]

I wouldn't be surprised if most toothed whales live in social groups that are bound as tightly.

Not sure if you knew this, but technically Killer whales aren't "whales". They're actually members of the dolphin family.

Heck I even lay awake at night trying not to think about all the families of long-lived rock-fish that are known to mate for life that I've traumatized and killed.

Again, you might be guilty of assigning human characteristics to animals incapable of human thought processes.

The fish's brain is (at least in many ways) much more primitive than that of Homo Sapiens. They don't have the same emotions or ability to process memories that humans have.

[segnosaur]

He is a doctor of various qualifications, and a writer as well. He is also maybe a bit of a crazy guy who did a lot of LSD in his time, and he came up with the concept of deprivation tanks, which I have had a crack at in my time. Anyway, in a book called "Mind of The Dolphin" he describes his marine research center in the Carribean where any kind of marine mammal can swim into and out of, at their leisure owing to the layout of the place. He was especially looking for dolphins and he got lots. They were never in captivity, they just chose to visit.

Yeah I think there might have been a little bit more to it...

http://www.cracked.com/article_20119_6-elaborate-science-experiments-done-just-hell-it_p2.html

[segnosaur]

I've been fortunate to actually see a wolverine while hiking in YoHo... a grizzly several times now while in Banff/Lake Louise. I've watched a mother/calf humpback resting on the ocean floor... had dozens of dolphin encounters...

While those may have been wonderful experiences, not everyone will have the resources available to have similar experiences.

(Not only that, it should be noted that your experience may also be disruptive to the environment. You may have been careful in your encounters, but there is no guarantee every encounter will be done without stress to the environment.)

As much as those experiences and associated images are imprinted in my memory, none of those images can compare with the wildlife photography presented in, for example, the just completed CBC Nature of Things 'Wild Canada' 5-part series. There is nothing a zoo/aquarium can present that can compare to that photography. There is nothing a zoo/aquarium can present to match wildlife photography... in the wild.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

But to me, a photograph (or documentary) is flat, 2 dimensional, and doesn't really provide any sense of scale for what these animals are really like.

Heck, with the advancement of computer graphics, your average teenager is just as likely to have an emotional connection to the planet from Avatar as they are to animals on our own planet, if the only exposure to them is what is seen on TV or in pictures.

[segnosaur]

Oh sorry, I understood this wasn't for tourists. I didn't mean to imply that. Dolphins do mimic humans, it's well documented and just goes to show, that these intelligent mammals should not be captured and put on display.

You're right... they should not be captured and put on display... they should be hunted down and exterminated. Every last one of them...

From: http://www.cracked.com/article_16762_the-6-biggest-assholes-in-animal-kingdom_p2.html

...they're the only other animal that will kill for fun. Back in the late nineties, marine biologists began to find lots of porpoise carcasses that had seemingly been punched in the gut until they died.

...

There are only two explanations left: either "Because dolphins think killing is freaking hilarious" or because "Dolphins kill porpoises as training for when they have to kill baby dolphins.