August1991 Posted March 19, 2014 Report Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I suspect that Belarus, not eastern Ukraine, will be the next "flash" point between Russia and the West. In the West, the usual suspects will explain that the current leadership is weak/incompetent. (At present, since Obama is on the left, America's right claims that he is weak. If the next US president is on the right, and Russia takes Belarus, America's left will claim the president is incompetent. In the US, all foreign affairs become domestic arguments.) Frankly, I have no problem with Belarus becoming part of Russia. (I also have no problem with the Crimea becoming part of Russia, and even the eastern bank of the Dnieper River - in the same way that the Ottawa River is a natural Canadian divide.) ===== 1. We in the West must bring as many people as we can into this Western enclosure. Western Ukraine wants to join NATO? Let's put this "new, smaller" Ukraine quickly into NATO. (For an American Left president facing the American Right, it would show that he's tough.) 2. Russia? Russians (like China and India) will become Western in their own way. People in these countries will discover Galileo and then Volaire. Sadly, too many Russians missed the Enlightenment. 3. In the long run, whether or not individuals (we are 7 billion on this planet) understand what the Enlightenment was all about, we will have to live together. Modern technology has made it possible for us to travel cheaply, and communicate. Like it or not, the future is a large, multicultural, multilingual city. It is Bombay or Lemberg. ==== At the risk of sounding paternalistic, we in the West who know about Galileo and Voltaire must be patient with others around us. Edited March 19, 2014 by August1991 Quote
Bonam Posted March 19, 2014 Report Posted March 19, 2014 Russians are quite well aware of Galileo (and Voltaire too). Certainly no less aware than are, for example, Americans. Russian scientists are among the best in the world and Russian art and philosophy is not unworthy either. The difference in Russia is one of culture and historical perspective. Russia's leaders will ALWAYS be looking to take over Ukraine, Belarus, and other areas in the region with Russian populations, as they see these areas as a historical part of Russia. If you ever read a Russian history book, it begins in Kiev. Quote
August1991 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Report Posted March 19, 2014 Russians are quite well aware of Galileo (and Voltaire too).I disagree. I think too many Russians missed The Enlightenment. But Bonam, let's take this further. Would you say the same of Pakistanis, or Arabs? IYHO, are Muslims well aware of Galileo and Voltaire? Quote
Bonam Posted March 19, 2014 Report Posted March 19, 2014 I disagree. I think too many Russians missed The Enlightenment. But Bonam, let's take this further. Would you say the same of Pakistanis, or Arabs? Nope, I wouldn't. But I would say it of Russians. Quote
Big Guy Posted March 19, 2014 Report Posted March 19, 2014 Nothing is forever - especially in Europe. I had referenced two sites in another thread that I believe show that there are no "Ethnic" thought processes. A nationality can be claimed according to which period in time one uses as the "real" borders of their country. History of Europe - 6013 years in 3 minutes http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uxDyJ_6N-6A Epic Time-Lapse of Europe --HistoricalAtlas.com http://www.worldolog..._history_md.htm Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
August1991 Posted March 20, 2014 Author Report Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Nothing is forever...I disagree. The speed of light is a limit, like looking at a horizon. Pi and e are obvious constants that have existed forever. Forever? It is impossible to have a universe with such logic as 2+7 = 9 and also 2+7 = 3. ----- Among the various discoveries of my life, the most reassuring was to understand that if 3+5=8 here on Earth, it must also be true on Mars, every where else in our galaxy and indeed everywhere in the universe. Big Guy, maybe God does exist. Edited March 20, 2014 by August1991 Quote
Rue Posted March 20, 2014 Report Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) For what its worth I think Bon is dead on about Russian history and Putin is merely the latest in a long line of Czar Dictators trying to prop his power base appealing to the chauvinism that runs deep in the blood of Russians and has been humiliated since the day Gorbachev conceded the Soviet Empire was collapsing. The Stalinists are back singing their anthem and seeing a new Czar promising them glory. On words to victory. I also appreciate Big Guy's take. Its a bit simplistic sure but come on its accurate as hell. Borders? They have flipped and flopped so many times what is a border in Europe or in many other places on the planet.... Just look at the Pale region. The maps flipped so many times who could keep score? Sure we can come up with more complex theories as to why the maps changed, but come on, the maps keep changing with the politics of the day. Who has a better claim? Well sure...it does depend on how far back your version of history wants to go....25 years....50 years...100 years...1000 years...isn't that the basis of all land conflicts... trying to determine whose version of historic time lines and events justifies the entitlement to the borders you want to support? In the end, we all fight over land and no one is right or wrong and its absurd because none of us is anything more then a mere blip that comes and goes on this planet and these ridiculous empires we build crumble. The native peoples were always right. We don't own this planet and trying to own and conquer it is absurd. Its a living organism that precedes us and procedes us and if we do not learn we are only temporary guests on the planet-and we assume we own the planet, all we do is kill each other and pollute the planet. I doubt though we will evolve past our primal ape pack mentality of living in packs with Alpha males and designated territories our Alpha males urinate to mark. That is all this is. Alpha males of competing ape packs urinating to mark territory and pissing on the same tree and causing conflicts as to whose pee is stronger in smell. Y'all ask me, we homo sapiens need to shut up and let the crows run the planet. They have a much more efficient way of cooperation and marking territory. Whales and dolphins too. Also worms. Edited March 20, 2014 by Rue Quote
Argus Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Russians are quite well aware of Galileo (and Voltaire too). Certainly no less aware than are, for example, Americans. Russian scientists are among the best in the world and Russian art and philosophy is not unworthy either. Really? Russian artists are world famous, are they? Russia get a lof of nobel prizes, does it? In fact, for a country its size Russia has always been dramatically underwhelming with its impact on the world. The only thing it has ever had which impressed anyone was its potential for violence. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 Really? Russian artists are world famous, are they? Russia get a lof of nobel prizes, does it? ... Well, they have received 4 more than Canada. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted March 22, 2014 Report Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Well, they have received 4 more than Canada. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country They're ten times our size, so they should have ten times our nobels. That would give them about 270 rather than 27. The US has 350 And Canada is fairly well known as a place where most of the big companies are branch plants of foreign companies. Edited March 22, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Bonam Posted March 23, 2014 Report Posted March 23, 2014 They're ten times our size, so they should have ten times our nobels. That would give them about 270 rather than 27. For someone who keeps whining about Russia you'd think you'd at least roughly know the population. Hint: it's not the Soviet Union anymore. Russia's population is only ~4x that of Canada, not 10x. Russia has a very similar population to Japan, and has an approximately equal number of nobel prizes. Both nations are leading contributors to the sciences. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 23, 2014 Report Posted March 23, 2014 Forever? It is impossible to have a universe with such logic as 2+7 = 9 and also 2+7 = 3. Not to drift the thread too much, but you're wrong. The universe doesn't know anything about 2+2. It's Mathematics, which exists in the human mind and is not a natural science. 2+2=4 is an approximation, as they say. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted March 23, 2014 Report Posted March 23, 2014 For someone who keeps whining about Russia you'd think you'd at least roughly know the population. Hint: it's not the Soviet Union anymore. Russia's population is only ~4x that of Canada, not 10x. Russia has a very similar population to Japan, and has an approximately equal number of nobel prizes. Both nations are leading contributors to the sciences. Whining about Russia? Sorry, perhaps you could point out where exactly I've been 'whining' about Russia. Fine, you're correct in that I had forgotten the distinction, but the fact remains the same. Russia is not and never has been a major contributor to the sciences. Why saying that seems to fill you with such righteous indignation is beyond me. Japan is also not a leading contributer to the sciences. Something about their rigid communal thinking and lack of willingness to step outside the box, perhaps. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Bonam Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Whining about Russia? Sorry, perhaps you could point out where exactly I've been 'whining' about Russia. Fine, you're correct in that I had forgotten the distinction, but the fact remains the same. Russia is not and never has been a major contributor to the sciences. You need to look into the sciences a bit more before making such claim. No one with even a passing knowledge of physics could make such a statement with a straight face. Whether it comes to nuclear energy, space exploration, low temperature physics, cosmology, particle physics, plasma science, etc, Russian scientists have made significant contributions to all these fields. The world's leading concept for developing fusion energy - the Tokamak - was originally developed in Russia. Russia is one of only two nations (along with China) that can put humans in space. Those are just two examples... but seriously man, if you ever pick up a physics or math textbook, like a third of the equations and laws are named after Russian dudes. And if you ever stop by a physics lab in most any university in the US or Canada... half the people there are Russian immigrants. Heck, I've been to meetings at Canada's national particle and nuclear physics lab that were conducted in Russian. It's not hard to figure out who has made a contribution. You have a very backward attitude towards countries you perceive as your geopolitical enemies... you assume they are all uncouth barbarians. But that's simply not the case. And seriously... "forgot the distinction"... what does that mean? Forgot the distinction between what and what? Russia and the non-existent Soviet Union? Stuck in the 80s much? Japan is also not a leading contributer to the sciences. Something about their rigid communal thinking and lack of willingness to step outside the box, perhaps. Seriously? Japan is at the very forefront of developments in the fields of computer science, artificial intelligence, neural networks, robotics, nanotechnology, biotechnology, semiconductor manufacturing, as well as having provided significant contributions to theoretical and experimental physics. Just because you don't know anything about these fields and haven't heard anything about what research has occurred in what nations, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Edited March 24, 2014 by Bonam Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 ...Russia is not and never has been a major contributor to the sciences. Why saying that seems to fill you with such righteous indignation is beyond me. Japan is also not a leading contributer to the sciences.... Wow...this is an amazingly ignorant thing to post. Russian contributions to the arts, literature, sciences, and engineering are well documented. Surely you are kidding here... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 Oh yeah, they built the Lada don't forget. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 Oh yeah, they built the Lada don't forget. Russia still has major domestic car makes...Canada doesn't. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 The Lada is actually from Italy. Ever heard of a Bricklin? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 The Lada is actually from Italy. Ever heard of a Bricklin? Is the very awful Bricklin still in production ? Did it ever have major sales numbers like a Lada (over 20,000,000) built ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 Ever ridden in a Lada. If you smoke make sure you put it out before you enter. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Ever ridden in a Lada. If you smoke make sure you put it out before you enter. Ever ridden in a MiG-23 ? Canada can no longer build its own fighter "jets". The Russians can... Edited March 24, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 I've ridden in an IL 76 and an AN 24 and 26 and a 224. Canada built one of the finest fighters ever. And it will help build the replacement for the F18 as soon as it finds something that actually works. It won't be the F35 BTW. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 I've ridden in an IL 76 and an AN 24 and 26 and a 224. Canada built one of the finest fighters ever. And it will help build the replacement for the F18 as soon as it finds something that actually works. It won't be the F35 BTW. Who knows....maybe it will be Russian. They don't have to wait to see how the political wind blows to build fighter "jets". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 24, 2014 Report Posted March 24, 2014 Do you have a problem with the word jets? Quote
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