On Guard for Thee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 Flying 4 planes into buildings or the dirt doesn't count. They weren't terrorists. Just slightly misguided jehadis lookin' to have a little fun. Quote
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 The portion of the law which applies to dual citizens can only be envoked for treason terrorism, or spying for another country - presumably the one you were born in.Nope.Born here. Grandparents were from Ireland, Ireland likes to keep its kin as citizens, wherever they are. So him and his buddy - also born here, but no dual citizenship - do something labelled 'terrorist', designed to create fear, like firebombing an abortion clinic for Christian reasons. And he gets stripped of his citizenship and deported to Ireland, where he's never lived. He's Canadian. Oh and buddy has no other citizenship so he gets to stay Canadian. Fair? These are not crimes in the sense robbing a bank is a crime. These are crimes under the National Defense Act which involve acting against the whole of Canada on behalf of a foreign power or entity. As far as I'm concerned, someone convicted of that is not really a Canadian anyway, and obviously would prefer being back 'home' with those he was acting for. See the thing about unfair laws, like laws that discriminate against dual citizens, is that when you have to start making excuses and exemptions for the white Christian kids, it becomes obvious who you are really discriminating against. . Quote
Argus Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 the should be treated exactly as any other Canadian would be. Why, when they're clearly not Canadians in any real sense? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Keepitsimple Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 My problem is ... take two Canadian citizens, both born here, both convicted of a terrorist act, both sentenced to prison, but only one of them loses his Canadian citizenship as well ... because he happens to also have citizenship for another country (through his parents) where he has never lived and has no family, etc. Same crime, same time, but one gets an additional lifelong 'sentence' of losing citizenship. I'm not sympathetic to people who commit terrorist acts, but lack of fairness in the law concerns me. So then if the legislation was amended to exclude those dual citizens who were born in Canada, you'd be OK with it? Is that basically where you stand? Quote Back to Basics
Argus Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 Nope. Born here. Grandparents were from Ireland, Ireland likes to keep its kin as citizens, wherever they are. So him and his buddy - also born here, but no dual citizenship - do something labelled 'terrorist', designed to create fear, like firebombing an abortion clinic for Christian reasons. And he gets stripped of his citizenship and deported to Ireland, where he's never lived. He's Canadian. And I should care about what happens to him, for some reason? Realistically, the odds of this happening are virtually zilch. What you'll instead see is some Chinese guy who came here working for his government, got Canadian citizenship (it ain't hard to do) and has been spying for the Chinese being caught and sent home. Or some lunatic jihadi who came here from a Muslim country deciding to blow people up losing his new citizenship and being sent home. And if instead it's his kid, say someone like, oh, how about Omar Khadr losing his citizenship? I'm fine with that too. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 So then if the legislation was amended to exclude those dual citizens who were born in Canada, you'd be OK with it? Is that basically where you stand? No. A citizen is a citizen. There shouldn't be discrimination against different 'classes' of citizens. Born here or not, dual citizen or not ... the penalties for being convicted of terrorist acts should be the same. You shouldn't get a harsher penalty - stripped of citizenship - just because you happen to hold dual citizenship. . Quote
Argus Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 No. A citizen is a citizen. There shouldn't be discrimination against different 'classes' of citizens. Born here or not, dual citizen or not ... the penalties for being convicted of terrorist acts should be the same. You shouldn't get a harsher penalty - stripped of citizenship - just because you happen to hold dual citizenship. . Their 'citizenship' is a lie, a farce, a cover. It means nothing to them other than free health care and welfare. We owe nothing to such people Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Keepitsimple Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 No. A citizen is a citizen. There shouldn't be discrimination against different 'classes' of citizens. Born here or not, dual citizen or not ... the penalties for being convicted of terrorist acts should be the same. You shouldn't get a harsher penalty - stripped of citizenship - just because you happen to hold dual citizenship. . Knowing what you know now - and how the world has changed - if you were able to go back in time and re-write the legislation that originally allowed aliens to obtain dual citizenship - would you have put any stipulations in place that would address some of the issues that enrage people? Quote Back to Basics
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 And I should care about what happens to him, for some reason? Realistically, the odds of this happening are virtually zilch. What you'll instead see is some Chinese guy who came here working for his government, got Canadian citizenship (it ain't hard to do) and has been spying for the Chinese being caught and sent home. Or some lunatic jihadi who came here from a Muslim country deciding to blow people up losing his new citizenship and being sent home. And if instead it's his kid, say someone like, oh, how about Omar Khadr losing his citizenship? I'm fine with that too. If it isn't fair for one citizen, it isn't fair for anyone. Omar Khadr is the reason for this bad legislation, no doubt: A sop to the hard righties who just want some (non-caucasian) person to be punished. Ironically ... it likely won't be Omar Khadr because he was born here and I don't believe he has any other citizenship. . Quote
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) Their 'citizenship' is a lie, a farce, a cover. It means nothing to them other than free health care and welfare. We owe nothing to such peopleThen prove they lied or obtained citizenship fraudulently.We don't need a new law to strip their citizenship for that. . . Edited June 29, 2014 by jacee Quote
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 Knowing what you know now - and how the world has changed - if you were able to go back in time and re-write the legislation that originally allowed aliens to obtain dual citizenship - would you have put any stipulations in place that would address some of the issues that enrage people? No. We already have the laws needed to strip citizenship from people who lied or otherwise obtained citizenship fraudulently. Just prove it. Quote
Argus Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 Then prove they lied or obtained citizenship fraudulently. We don't need a new law to strip their citizenship for that. You and I will never agree on this. You are the lawyer, talking about specific wording in legislation. I am the practical guy talking reality. I don't care about the law any more than you care about reality. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted June 29, 2014 Report Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) You and I will never agree on this. You are the lawyer, talking about specific wording in legislation. I am the practical guy talking reality. I don't care about the law any more than you care about reality.Gotcha, eh! . Edited June 29, 2014 by jacee Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 Their 'citizenship' is a lie, a farce, a cover. It means nothing to them other than free health care and welfare. We owe nothing to such people Oh really? So you are telling me what my citizenship means to me? Gee thanx... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
eyeball Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 And I should care about what happens to him, for some reason? Realistically, the odds of this happening are virtually zilch. What you'll instead see is some Chinese guy who came here working for his government, got Canadian citizenship (it ain't hard to do) and has been spying for the Chinese being caught and sent home. Or some lunatic jihadi who came here from a Muslim country deciding to blow people up losing his new citizenship and being sent home. And if instead it's his kid, say someone like, oh, how about Omar Khadr losing his citizenship? I'm fine with that too. What you're basically saying is that you'd be okay with the government just making up it's reasons and rationalizations for dispensing justice on the fly and as it sees fit. That's completely nuts. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cybercoma Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Why, when they're clearly not Canadians in any real sense? If they hold citizenship, they absolutely are in the only real sense. Edited June 30, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
cybercoma Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 Their 'citizenship' is a lie, a farce, a cover. It means nothing to them other than free health care and welfare. We owe nothing to such people It doesn't matter what you think of it. They went through the process. They legally got citizenship and they swore their allegiance to the Crown. They're citizens in the full sense of the word, the law, and practice. Your own personal hangups about it mean absolutely nothing. Their crimes mean absolutely nothing. If they're criminals, then treat them as you would any other citizen who commits a crime. Period. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 I am the practical guy talking reality. When will you understand that what you believe is reality is not everyone's reality. The reality is they're citizens like anyone else with citizenship. That's reality. Quote
Argus Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 Oh really? So you are telling me what my citizenship means to me? Gee thanx... Are you a spy for some other country? Are you a terrorist? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) If they hold citizenship, they absolutely are in the only real sense. As before, you are speaking the fine, legal interpretations and I am speaking in practical terms. I make a distinction between what is written on paper and what is in a person's heart, as demonstrated by their actions. And perhaps I simply consider being a Canadian to be more important than you do. To you and others it's just a piece of paper issued by a clerk, like a drivers licence or an Optima card. It means somewhat more than that to some of us. Edited June 30, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 And perhaps I simply consider being a Canadian to be more important than you do. If you put any importance behind Canadian citizenship, you wouldn't be so willing to allow a government to take it away with the stroke of a pen. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 Are you a spy for some other country? Are you a terrorist? How hard would it be to go further down that road? Are you a spy, a terrorist, did you murder someone, did you commit fraud etc... where do you stop? Speeding tickets? Oh well he is accused of being a terrorist so take his citizenship away. And if I forfeit my second citizenship am I your equal or am I still a 2nd rate citizen? If you want to avoid spy/terrorist/citizen of convenience then by all means tackle that problem during the immigration/permanent residency stage, not after when they are citizens. How can you expect to have a group of individuals who make up a sizeable portion of the population to be productive individuals if they are considered a second class citizen? Where would you draw the line? Born in Canada or would you have to be 3rd or 4th generation to be truly Canadian? I mean Khadr is Canadian born, is he better than me simply because he was born in Canada without regard to actions? I'm pretty sure I have been significantly more productive citizen than him yet I would be inferior to him... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
overthere Posted June 30, 2014 Report Posted June 30, 2014 A lot of people in Canada think there are degrees of equality. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Argus Posted July 1, 2014 Report Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) If you put any importance behind Canadian citizenship, you wouldn't be so willing to allow a government to take it away with the stroke of a pen. If you put any importance behind being Canadian you wouldn't believe that a stroke of a pen was all you needed to make you one. Edited July 1, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 1, 2014 Report Posted July 1, 2014 How hard would it be to go further down that road? Are you a spy, a terrorist, did you murder someone, did you commit fraud etc... where do you stop? Yes, yes, I've seen these silly slippery slope type arguments before. You can use such wildly exagerated fears on almost any rule, law or legislation. The point you are ignoring is that by taking action against this country these individuals are showing they don't care about it and never have. Let them go home and be rid of them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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