Request from York University male student not to intermingle with wome

[Michael Hardner]

What does it matter if your ignorance is inspired by religion or not? Why should we make excuses for ignorance?

Unless, of course, we're paternalistic bleeding heart liberals...

Well, it's kind of woven into the legal system is why.

[cybercoma]

Says who ? It's always "it depends","what will people put up with"... The employer has a right, the citizen has a right... but who would want to work somewhere where people are always asserting their rights ?

It's strange to see you being so dismissive without anything to back it up.

I don't think I said that they need to do that. I don't care much either way, but if I did I suppose I would ask for a clear and standard process with some capacity for consultation with publics.

I don't understand why a university code of conduct needs to be made in consultation with the general public any more than an employer's code of conduct would need to be in consultation with the public.

[cybercoma]

My feeling is students will do anything to get away with not doing project work etc.

I've taught university students and that's not my experience at all. I find that most students do their work and pay attention and only a very small group behave the way you say. We're talking about university here, not grade school or high school. Students that elect to go to university but choose not to do their work are typically weeded out in the first or second term. Since the students are adults (the majority of them being 18+), it's their responsibility to do their work and behave in accordance with the university's code of conduct. It's not like high school, where they're required to be there for most of it (until they're 16 in most provinces) and the teachers, counsellors, and administrators are obligated to ensure that they're learning. Students that aren't in university to learn find out quickly that it's impossible to pass.

[RB]

I've taught university students and that's not my experience at all...Since the students are adults (the majority of them being 18+), it's their responsibility to do their work ...

I do respect that you have a different view and experience as a teacher - you are correct not all students want to get away from group projects, or want to be free of groups - however in my experience as a student and over 4 different universities now - I still find these "free riders" existing, and that, just perhaps, this is one of those hard working students who is simply too keen, adult and sensitive about group efforts. It is my opinion that the University did not do a due diligence, and conduct a through investigate before accommodation. Accommodation request should be taken seriously. This sounded more like internal conflicts, and struggles with administration and the department. Felt like they had no set policy, like accommodation is just by who is making the request that day. What I meant is if you are going to provide accommodation that it is justified accross the board so that I as a man/or woman can also request this separation of intermingling from other women to enjoy these freedom

[Michael Hardner]

It's strange to see you being so dismissive without anything to back it up.

Huh ? I was commenting on your statement: "Eating meat on Friday is not a reasonable requirement of the job. Working with your peers without discriminating against them is."

Yours is an opinion which doesn't need back up. I said it depends on the situation, on what people will put up with and asked who would want to work in such an environment where people have to assert their rights over and over. I don't think I need to back up anything I said, but I will gladly do so if you ask me what specifically I should clarify there.

I don't understand why a university code of conduct needs to be made in consultation with the general public any more than an employer's code of conduct would need to be in consultation with the public.

Presumably because a university is a public institution. The outrage over the decision would indicate that public consultation is needed.

[Boges]

Something similar has happened in Nova Scotia.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/14/teen-felt-degraded-after-teacher-divided-aikido-classes-by-gender-following-male-students-religious-request/

A Nova Scotia high school student is asserting she was reduced to “second-class citizenship” after her Halifax aikido school followed provincial human rights law and accommodated a male student’s religious request not to touch his female classmates.

“I felt degraded, discriminated against, I felt like a woman in the 1950s,” said Sonja Power, 17, a former student at Halifax’s East Coast Yoshinkan Aikido, a school operated out of the city’s Lakeside Community Centre. “We wouldn’t allow someone using their religion to discriminate against someone’s race, so why would they use it to discriminate against somebody’s gender?”

Ms. Power, a resident of the Halifax suburb of Upper Tantallon, NS, had been a student at East Coast Yoshinkan since the age of six.

In the spring of 2012, Ms. Power, then 15, was just on the verge of earning her aikido black belt when she said a man enrolled at the school and told its owner that, for reasons of his Islamic faith, he was not allowed physical contact with women.

I think we have to ask ourselves, are we going to allow, or should I say force, women to be segregated to accommodate a man's religous/cultural requests/demands? Edited January 15, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

I think we have to ask ourselves, are we going to allow, or should I say force, women to be segregated to accommodate a man's religous/cultural requests/demands?

It's a good question, but without a clear process then we don't have the power to 'allow' anything. Clearly, with the York situation there is no definition of stakeholders, and an unclear process - let alone consultation with such groups as: York students or Canadians in general.

Not that discussion is a bad thing, but we shouldn't delude ourselves to thinking that our discussions have any weight behind them unless the process provides for that.

[Boges]

It becomes a tug-of-war of rights and which side you fall on them.

Does a Muslim Man have a human right to have people accommodate his wishes to avoid dealing with women?

And conversely should a woman be forced into a segregated environment because an Islamic man doesn't wish to deal with her?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

It becomes a tug-of-war of rights and which side you fall on them.

Does a Muslim Man have a human right to have people accommodate his wishes to avoid dealing with women?

And conversely should a woman be forced into a segregated environment because an Islamic man doesn't wish to deal with her?

The content of the question isn't as interesting as how we handle it, IMO. Ultimately it doesn't matter, it really doesn't. If we can survive the process as it is, and nobody cares enough to change it then it will continue.

I certainly don't care about this particular issue so much, and although I'd like to see a more inclusive process the point seems to be lost on most people - they just want to talk about the particulars of this case.

[Boges]

It certainly matters to a girl who has to only associate with women in the karate class, she's(or her parents) paid to attend, because a man says she can't touch her.

[cybercoma]

Something similar has happened in Nova Scotia.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/14/teen-felt-degraded-after-teacher-divided-aikido-classes-by-gender-following-male-students-religious-request/

I think we have to ask ourselves, are we going to allow, or should I say force, women to be segregated to accommodate a man's religous/cultural requests/demands?

I think in this case if he doesn't want to put his hands on a woman, he shouldn't have to. Physical contact is a different thing from working together. The York student wasn't required to touch his female classmates. Frankly, I'm not sure why the girl was so offended. In Muslim culture it's a sign of respect that men don't put their hands on other women. It shouldn't be seen as demeaning.

[Boges]

I think in this case if he doesn't want to put his hands on a woman, he shouldn't have to. Physical contact is a different thing from working together. The York student wasn't required to touch his female classmates. Frankly, I'm not sure why the girl was so offended. In Muslim culture it's a sign of respect that men don't put their hands on other women. It shouldn't be seen as demeaning.

It's a karate class, that's the whole point of karate. . . touching!

[cybercoma]

Of course, but if he's uncomfortable fighting a woman or touching a woman then I don't think he should be forced to. That's a different thing than just working on the same research paper as a woman.

Edited January 15, 2014 by cybercoma

[Boges]

And when it came time for the customary end-of-class handshakes, “he would shake hands with all the other men in the dojo, but he wouldn’t even come over and look at the women … he just ignored us,” said Ms. Power.

The man also refused to bow, apparently telling the dojo’s sensei that he only bowed to Allah. Bowing is a big part of the Japanese martial art, and aikido students are expected to regularly bow to classmates, the sensei and the front wall of the dojo, which is traditionally adorned with portraits of aikido’s pioneers.

Doesn't sound too respectful to me.

[cybercoma]

ok?

[Boges]

I guess the point is that religious freedoms should stop when they effect the rights of others. It sounds like in this instance the enjoyment of this girls in the class were effected by someone else's religious demands.

I'm curious at what point we see co-ed gyms have to restrict where women can go on the floor because of a request from Muslim males.

[Michael Hardner]

It certainly matters to a girl who has to only associate with women in the karate class, she's(or her parents) paid to attend, because a man says she can't touch her.

To her, sure. But imagine if so many people discussed issues of such a low impact. Again, a process would at least let everyone know that people have a say and I think that's what would matter most to those who aren't minimally affected by this.

[bush_cheney2004]

....I'm curious at what point we see co-ed gyms have to restrict where women can go on the floor because of a request from Muslim males.

Actually, such a discussion in the public space has already occurred because of women's only health clubs and gyms, such as Curves International, which i think has franchises in Canada. Curves specifically caters to a female only experience as part of their business model. This is just another routine gender segregation example that already exists in "society".

[Michael Hardner]

Actually, such a discussion in the public space has already occurred because of women's only health clubs and gyms, such as Curves International, which i think has franchises in Canada. Curves specifically caters to a female only experience as part of their business model. This is just another routine gender segregation example that already exists in "society".

Exactly - so my right to enjoy a gym is thereby impacted... yada yada yada... again, this is more an issue to address peoples' general understanding/cluelessness over how much the powers care about what they think. Usually, the answer is 'not much'...

[Boges]

If there is a market for men's only gyms then someone should open one.

Of course there isn't a market for them.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

Of course there isn't a market for them.

There are probably some parts of Toronto where that would be successful. There were, to my understanding, informal 'no women' and 'no men' bar nights but I'm recalling from memory. As to why it didn't make the paper, I guess nobody cared much.

[cybercoma]

I guess the point is that religious freedoms should stop when they effect the rights of others. It sounds like in this instance the enjoyment of this girls in the class were effected by someone else's religious demands.

I'm curious at what point we see co-ed gyms have to restrict where women can go on the floor because of a request from Muslim males.

I don't understand. He refuses to touch women as a sign of respect, according to his religion. The girls' enjoyment of the class is inhibited by the fact that a guy won't touch them? I think it's reasonable that a guy shouldn't be required to touch women if he's uncomfortable with it. Frankly, nobody should be compelled to touch anyone else against their wishes for any reason. When the touching is sexual (it's not here), it's a crime to compel a person to do it even. Physical contact is a wholly different thing than working on a project together in a group. I'm just saying I don't think they're comparable situations at all.

[Boges]

But in the instance of this story it wasn't just the one guy, it was all the guys in the class. The class went from co-ed to segregated because of the wishes of one person.

The stories aren't completely comparable but I thought I'd post the link here instead of starting a new thread.

[Argus]

I don't understand. He refuses to touch women as a sign of respect, according to his religion. The girls' enjoyment of the class is inhibited by the fact that a guy won't touch them? I think it's reasonable that a guy shouldn't be required to touch women if he's uncomfortable with it. Frankly, nobody should be compelled to touch anyone else against their wishes for any reason.

Really, Cyber? So, like, if we have Muslim doctors and a female patient comes in bleeding he should be allowed to go have a coffee break so he doesn't have to touch her?

I read the story. The guy's hatred of women completely changed the makeup of the class. Everyone had to change because of this one loony and his misogyny. Why do you support people who hate and have contempt for women, anyway?

[Argus]

If there is a market for men's only gyms then someone should open one.

Of course there isn't a market for them.

There used to be a lot of them but women sued and human rights agencies ordered them all to co co-ed.