Nelson Mandela, an icon of freedom, tolerance and equality, dies at 95

[Hudson Jones]

Seems to be worse for all parties these days. Miracle or not...

Is that so? Are you saying that the blacks had it better when they lived in bantustans and were not able to vote and not able to hold many jobs because of the colour of their skin.

[DogOnPorch]

I can't say she was for it, I don't propose to know what was going on inside her head, nor do I expect do you. I can only by her actions.

Here's a fairly hefty collection of her quotes re: Apartheid. Seems she and her government were against Apartheid. I'm pretty sure she and her government hid anti-Apartheid activists in the British consulate in South Africa at some point.

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=368488&sn=Detail

Is that so? Are you saying that the blacks had it better when they lived in bantustans and were not able to vote and not able to hold many jobs because of the colour of their skin.

I think blacks AND whites have it worse in South Africa minus a few elite. But, even Rev. Tutu has to deal with South Africa's ridiculously high crime rate...eh?

[Hudson Jones]

I think blacks AND whites have it worse in South Africa minus a few elite. But, even Rev. Tutu has to deal with South Africa's ridiculously high crime rate...eh?

Really? The blacks have it worse in South Africa?

So you are saying that living in bantustans and not being able to vote is better than how their lives are today. Interesting view of life.

[DogOnPorch]

Really? The blacks have it worse in South Africa?

So you are saying that living in bantustans and not being able to vote is better than how their lives are today. Interesting view of life.

Now they deal with a murder rate that is sky high. Aids is rampant and the next Robert Mugabe can't wait to shoot more Boer. They'll be fine.

[Hudson Jones]

I guess the higher crime rate would make a good argument to keep people from being able to vote and to keep them in black only bantustans and to make sure that the whites continue to keep control of the blacks. Like keeping the animals in their cage, eh?

You are a champion DogOnPorch.

[DogOnPorch]

I guess the higher crime rate would make a good argument to keep people from being able to vote and to keep them in black only bantustans and to make sure that the whites continue to keep control of the blacks. Like keeping the animals in their cage, eh?

You are a champion DogOnPorch.

Your feeble attempts to portray me as pro-Apartheid will not amount to anything.

[On Guard for Thee]

Now they deal with a murder rate that is sky high. Aids is rampant and the next Robert Mugabe can't wait to shoot more Boer. They'll be fine.

And your ideas to try to fix that?

[On Guard for Thee]

Another round of "killing kafirs" per chance, maybe some more "broomin' the coons"? Bloody boers weren't even bright enough it seems to come up with their own racial slur. They had to borrow "kafir" from the Muslims.

[Hudson Jones]

Your feeble attempts to portray me as pro-Apartheid will not amount to anything.

I'm not attempting anything.

You are the one who is saying that life was better during the apartheid years than it is now.

This is why I asked you a few times to make sure where you stood on the issue and you confirmed that you think life was better under apartheid than it is now.

[Guest Derek L]

It's tough enough to be an ex-pat in many situations just because of the cultural changes, but these folks were clearly experiencing much higher levels of anxiety because of the circumstances upon emigrating, loss of property, violence, fear for family still there, etc. I'll never forget that one of programmers drove an old beat up Ford Fiesta despite having a near six figure salary. It was like she was waiting to exhale and feel safe again.

Indeed, my wife grew-up in a remote area in Transoranje, an area her father’s family had been in since the early 1800s, and had learnt, by necessity, to shoot and field strip an FN FAL by the time she was 10.…..When she went off to University in the 80s (During the declared State of Emergency) her father got her a .410 Street-Sweeper to keep in her residence and a .38 Colt Cobra for her handbag…….The entire nation is rooted in violence, more so then is often attributed to the settlement of your West and unlike you guys, South Africa is only getting worse.

And what is often missed in discussions over South Africa, is that like the Dutch, the Xhosa (Mandela and the majority of “blacks” in South Africa) were also migrants to South Africa, at roughly the same time, and like Europeans, helped displace the “indigenous” locals……..

The Afrikaner was much better adjusted and resigned to SA's fate, perhaps because of his military service. He told us that the wholesale violence and ANC tactics were very African in nature, not to be judged by less brutal western or even U.S. standards (e.g. lynchings).

Exactly, and as you and others brought up Bikko, another two factors often not mentioned are RFK’s Day of Affirmation speech and the advent and proliferation of television in the late 70s.

[On Guard for Thee]

I'm not attempting anything.

You are the one who is saying that life was better during the apartheid years than it is now.

This is why I asked you a few times to make sure where you stood on the issue and you confirmed that you think life was better under apartheid than it is now.

I have spent a number of years working and living in Africa including Capetown, Jo'berg and far beyond. I worked with blacks whites and various colors in between. I can tell you that the few folks that longed for the Apartheid days weren't ones anyone wanted to hang around with after hours.

[Argus]

The SA apartheid government never had to since they took away all their rights away, leaving them defenceless!

All they had to do was give the people equal rights to prevent more violence!

They did. The people had equal rights to every other African. Which Africans had more rights than the ones in South Africa at the time?

[Argus]

The link I provided states that there is no legally binding definition of terrorism.

There's no legally binding definition of 'shoe' either, but we know what they are.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not attempting anything.

You are the one who is saying that life was better during the apartheid years than it is now.

This is why I asked you a few times to make sure where you stood on the issue and you confirmed that you think life was better under apartheid than it is now.

I'm pro-history which is why you're...always...confused. You're the type of poster that likes to bend history...thus our lack of seeing eye to eye.

[Argus]

Nobody is honoring the guy that wad committed or was involved with commiting those acts. He went to prison for decades for them. People are honoring the guy who got out of prison and peacefully secured human rights for millions of people. And rightfully so! Very very few people in the world have ever achieved something like that.

I would certainly agree that Mandela's actions and behavior since his release were admirable in most ways (his loyalty to certain dictators notwithstanding) and he did what very, very few have ever done, especially in Africa. He changed the system and then didn't take it over for himself. His behaviour stands in starkest contrast to his one time allie Robert Mugabe, who turned his victory into an opportunity to empower and enrich only himself and his family and friends.

[Argus]

This tortured discussion pivoting around Mandela and moral choices/actions is fascinating. Perhaps it might be different if Canada's First Nations or U.S. Native Americans had their own successful "Mandela" ? Oh well, carry on with the moral relativism.....

Canada's first nations have every right that other Canadians have and more.

What might be a more interesting thought is whether or not the US ever would have allowed blacks to vote if they were the majority. It took until the sixties to achieve anything with them only being bout 5% of the population. Imagine the resistance if they were 90%.

[The_Squid]

They did. The people had equal rights to every other African. Which Africans had more rights than the ones in South Africa at the time?

How does that make the institutional racism OK?

[Argus]

the catholic church is against child rape and pedophilia but their actions or in-actions have enabled for it to continue.

That's a nonsensical statement.

[Argus]

How does that make the institutional racism OK?

Didn't say it was okay. I'm merely pointing out that they enjoyed the same level of freedom as blacks under the other tthirty odd black African governments.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

Lawyers, Engineers, Accountants, Insurance Brokers,Geologists .....who knew they openly harboured pedophiles

Maybe you have a link to same showing us this truth ? Or are you the Rob Ford of MLW ?

Nobody "openly' harboured pedophiles. Most people didn't even know what they were. The society was such if a child said her teacher or doctor or priest touched them they'd get a spanking.

But there's no evidence that the Catholic Church, despite all the publicity, had a higher percentage of pedophiles amongst them than in society in general.

And, in fact, you, like many, are misusing the term. The vast majority of child-sexual molestation actions which priests have been accused/convicted of involved youths, mostly adolescent boys. Pedophiles don't molest teenagers. They molest six year olds. There are/were a lot of tortured gay men in the church hiding from what they were. Some of them didn't hide very successfully.

[cybercoma]

My contention is that apartheid was a racist form of government which stole the property, the human rights, and the dignity of blacks. Some government leaders actively opposed it, and some didn't and history shows where she stood. At least until it got too hot in the political kitchen.

You don't think she might have avoided supporting the ANC given the parallels with what was happening in Ireland?

[The_Squid]

Didn't say it was okay. I'm merely pointing out that they enjoyed the same level of freedom as blacks under the other tthirty odd black African governments.

So, what is your point? If you have no point, then it's irrelevant. They were treated better than the Egyptian slaves who built the pyramids too... But so what?

[The_Squid]

You don't think she might have avoided supporting the ANC given the parallels with what was happening in Ireland?

That's part of the problem with politicians, especially right wing politicians; their lack of ability to see or make a nuanced argument.

[On Guard for Thee]

You don't think she might have avoided supporting the ANC given the parallels with what was happening in Ireland?

Yes I think that is very likely a part of it.

[bud]

That's a nonsensical statement.

it is, only if you are not capable of understanding the analogy.

if the catholic church is going to announce that they're against pedophilia, while doing what they can in their power to protect the priests who engaged in child rape, then they're in the wrong and they're hypocrites.

if thatcher is going to say she is against apartheid, but do what she can to protect and enable the apartheid regime to continue what it's doing, then her comments about apartheid have no meaning and she is a hypocrite.