Nelson Mandela, an icon of freedom, tolerance and equality, dies at 95

[Mighty AC]

Actually, there are more folks on the planet now than all the previous folks combined...or something like that. That would mean religion is, really, growing in strength.

Yes, I'm sure that by total participation it is at or near the peak. However, by percentage participation and hence political influence, numbers are falling rather quickly. Anyway, let's not stray from the topic...even though my original comments were already drifting.

[Mighty AC]

We tend to overlook despicable acts if we agree with the ends. Mandela was friendly with evil dictators and plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence that lead to the the deaths of many innocent people, including women and children. As with others we have setup as heroes, like Gandhi or Ma Teresa, it is now unfashionable to dwell on the evil acts.

I wonder if the canonization of a guy like Mandela fosters resolve in terrorists/freedom fighters around the world.

[WWWTT]

Did the SA government plant explosives in markets, restaurants and on roads? I don't seem to recall anything about that...

The SA apartheid government never had to since they took away all their rights away, leaving them defenceless!

All they had to do was give the people equal rights to prevent more violence!

But that was asking for too much! And they lost in the end because they were wrong!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

We tend to overlook despicable acts if we agree with the ends. Mandela was friendly with evil dictators and plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence that lead to the the deaths of many innocent people, including women and children. As with others we have setup as heroes, like Gandhi or Ma Teresa, it is now unfashionable to dwell on the evil acts.

I wonder if the canonization of a guy like Mandela fosters resolve in terrorists/freedom fighters around the world.

So the US and Britain helped the evil SA government in oppressing its people!

So who was evil!

Oh and I say the SA government was evil because it oppressed the rights of millions of people! Old people, young people, women, children and men alike! Most of these oppressed people were civilians. And it went on for decades over decades!

WWWTT

[Rue]

We tend to overlook despicable acts if we agree with the ends. Mandela was friendly with evil dictators and plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence that lead to the the deaths of many innocent people, including women and children. As with others we have setup as heroes, like Gandhi or Ma Teresa, it is now unfashionable to dwell on the evil acts.

I wonder if the canonization of a guy like Mandela fosters resolve in terrorists/freedom fighters around the world.

I share your comment but I don't think he will go down as someone terrorists can exploit, the difference being Mandela came to renounce violence as a means to express political opinion.

[Rue]

So the US and Britain helped the evil SA government in oppressing its people!

So who was evil!

Oh and I say the SA government was evil because it oppressed the rights of millions of people! Old people, young people, women, children and men alike! Most of these oppressed people were civilians. And it went on for decades over decades!

WWWTT

Your history is selective. You snapshot South Africa as if it was the only evil country in the world.

The US had an equivalent apartheid system in the US until the 1960's.

Britain has had its share of racism.

All European countries have.

Then again who hasn't? Where has there never been evil?

Can you name me one country where there was NO racism, sexism, anti-semitism, or ISM of any kind?

The whole world stinks of it including today in Africa, Asia and South America as well as the first world.

Your point?

Who was evil you ask-I throw that question back at you-who hasn't been evil?

Show me a country with a pure record of goodness?

The white leaders you saw at the memorial were there expressing liberal guilt and this-look we are good white guys

shtik trying to exorcise their countries' pasts.

All of them.

As well before you point out the US or Britain as evil try look at Mugabe and some of the other leaders who showed up

or South Africa's current President.

The fact is evil can be found anywhere. The fact is this memorial gives some a temporary pass and an ability to be righteous

and pretend to be as righteous as Mandela now is in death.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, I'm sure that by total participation it is at or near the peak. However, by percentage participation and hence political influence, numbers are falling rather quickly. Anyway, let's not stray from the topic...even though my original comments were already drifting.

I'd disagree. Religion is, by far, more of a factor in today's life than it was say in the 1980s.

[DogOnPorch]

I would argue that several tactical nukes have been used since the two dropped on Japan. Tactical small yield nukes are carried by several fighter/bomber craft. I've heard several reports, but not sure if they are confirmed about the US using small tactical nukes in Iraq and Syria.

http://rt.com/news/us-nuked-iraq-during-gulf-war-report/

Nuclear weapons...when they go off...leave tell-tale signs. RT is just blowing hot air as they always do. Perhaps PressTV has a better angle.

[DogOnPorch]

Nelson was part of the MK...helped found it. They used to blow-up innocent people at bus stops. Terrorists.

[bud]

apartheid south africa came down because of a world movement that was triggered by mandela. u.s.' civil rights movement was from within. so it's not wise to compare the two.

some regimes are not capable of change of within, unless pressured from outside. apartheid south africa was one and israel looks to be another.

[Bonam]

apartheid south africa was one and israel looks to be another.

What a surprise, bud is back to Israel again.

[cybercoma]

Actually, there are more folks on the planet now than all the previous folks combined...or something like that. That would mean religion is, really, growing in strength.

This is not actually even remotely true.

[cybercoma]

By "definition" ? Really?

Not by the international community!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

WWWTT

That link calls terrorism exactly the thing that Mandela did to free his people. Did you even read it? Whether or not there is an international binding agreement about the definition of terrorism or not is beside the point. Words have meaning and to call it terrorism what Mandela did is wholly in line with the tactics he used.

[DogOnPorch]

This is not actually even remotely true.

Really? When I was born there was just under 3 billion people. Now there's 7 billion and climbing. When I was a teenager, Iranian and Afghan girls wore mini skirts. Now half of Americans think the planet is under 10,000 years old and have lost the ability to perform manned space flight. You just don't know any better.

[cybercoma]

Unsubstantiated claim.

WWWTT

You don't think people suffered under Communist governments? Really?

[cybercoma]

We tend to overlook despicable acts if we agree with the ends. Mandela was friendly with evil dictators and plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence that lead to the the deaths of many innocent people, including women and children.

Not just white women and children either, he killed many of his own people with his orders.

[DogOnPorch]

Not just white women and children either, he killed many of his own people with his orders.

Mandela's 'own people' were the Xhosa who were somewhat invaders, themselves.

[cybercoma]

So the US and Britain helped the evil SA government in oppressing its people!

So who was evil!

Oh and I say the SA government was evil because it oppressed the rights of millions of people! Old people, young people, women, children and men alike! Most of these oppressed people were civilians. And it went on for decades over decades!

WWWTT

Except for your first sentence, nobody is disputing that. The problem is that you refuse to see that Mandela's means were just as evil as the oppression he was fighting.

As for that first sentence, the US and Britain both had sanctions against Apartheid South Africa. So to make the blanket statement that they simply supported Apartheid is wrong and you've gone even further to say that they helped them.

[cybercoma]

Really? When I was born there was just under 3 billion people. Now there's 7 billion and climbing. When I was a teenager, Iranian and Afghan girls wore mini skirts. Now half of Americans think the planet is under 10,000 years old and have lost the ability to perform manned space flight. You just don't know any better.

Maybe I misinterpreted your statement, "there are more folks on the planet now than all the previous folks combined" to mean that the living outnumber the dead. This is a popular myth. Perhaps you simply meant that the population is higher now than it was in the past.

As for the living outnumbering the dead, see: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead

The author writes, "despite a quadrupling of the population in the past century, the number of people alive today is still dwarfed by the number of people who have ever lived."

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe I misinterpreted your statement, "there are more folks on the planet now than all the previous folks combined" to mean that the living outnumber the dead. This is a popular myth. Perhaps you simply meant that the population is higher now than it was in the past.

As for the living outnumbering the dead, see: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead

The author writes, "despite a quadrupling of the population in the past century, the number of people alive today is still dwarfed by the number of people who have ever lived."

Even if the numbers are off somewhat, today's living population is a VERY large number. Compare it to when Christianity was formed, for example. It's pure fantasy to say religion is on the decline. From a person's fishbowl, it might seem less of a factor...especially if non-religious to begin with. But, the actual numbers are going up no matter weasel comparisons via a percentage of the population or some other shell-game. More people equals more everything.

[cybercoma]

Even if the numbers are off somewhat, today's living population is a VERY large number.

Well yeah. I'm just saint it doesn't outnumber the dead.

Compare it to when Christianity was formed, for example. It's pure fantasy to say religion is on the decline. From a person's fishbowl, it might seem less of a factor...especially if non-religious to begin with. But, the actual numbers are going up no matter weasel comparisons via a percentage of the population or some other shell-game. More people equals more everything.

I guess if you want to ignore proportional numbers, sure. Everything is going up. Even the number of crimes. That's not really an informative statistic though. Edited December 11, 2013 by cybercoma

[DogOnPorch]

Well yeah. I'm just saint it doesn't outnumber the dead.

I guess if you want to ignore proportional numbers, sure. Everything is going up. Even the number of crimes. That's not really an informative statistic though.

No worries. Lots of folks love the shell game. It makes them feel better and gives them hope for the future. Sort of like arguing about climate change while the litter piles-up. Meanwhile, we'll be entering an age where antibiotics no longer work. That should cull a significant number of people; then it will be correct to say religion is on the decline.

[DogOnPorch]

Meanwhile, what more can be said about Mr Mandela? I suppose he could have been much much worse like Mr Mugabe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAfIEzYwqak

[WWWTT]

That link calls terrorism exactly the thing that Mandela did to free his people. Did you even read it? Whether or not there is an international binding agreement about the definition of terrorism or not is beside the point. Words have meaning and to call it terrorism what Mandela did is wholly in line with the tactics he used.

The link I provided states that there is no legally binding definition of terrorism.

What you are providing is a "common" definition as used by political regimes that want to belittle the efforts made by people to bring human rights were human rights have been denied.

WWWTT

[DogOnPorch]

The link I provided states that there is no legally binding definition of terrorism.

What you are providing is a "common" definition as used by political regimes that want to belittle the efforts made by people to bring human rights were human rights have been denied.

WWWTT

Yeah, I like the way South African human rights and freedoms made all those miners drop like flies.