Defining and classifying - Massacre

[GostHacked]

With the go back and forth of several threads I wanted to bring this up so that some of these threads can get some context. What do we define as a massacre? And why the term not evenly applied? Is it the number that were killed? How they were killed? Weapons used?

I've seen numbers as low as 10 fatalities that get classified as a massacre, and deaths as high as 50 not classified as a massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre

A massacre is an incident where some group is killed by another, and the perpetrating party are perceived to be in total control of force while the victimized party is perceived to be helpless and/or innocent with regard to any legitimate offense. There is no clear-cut definition for when killings are referred to as massacres or not, rather, this choice is a result of an individual or collective assessment, depending e.g. on how the circumstances of the killing align with given ideas of acceptable use of force and on the desired status of an event in collective memory.[2]

Yes it does seem to be completely arbitrary how this term is applied.

[eyeball]

Like terrorism.

The application is probably as much political as anything - everything is political.

People can be terrorized or massacred one or many at a time, like with a drone for example.

[jbg]

Like terrorism.

The application is probably as much political as anything - everything is political.

People can be terrorized or massacred one or many at a time, like with a drone for example.

Would you classify the 9/11 attacks as a massacre?

[eyeball]

Of course I would.

Would you classify drone attacks as terrorism?

[Guest]

Of course I would.

Would you classify drone attacks as terrorism?

When they kill militants, or innocent civilians?

The one is justifiable, the other accidental. Can terrorism be either?

[eyeball]

When they kill militants, or innocent civilians?

When they're launched.

The one is justifiable, the other accidental. Can terrorism be either?

Certainly, in the minds of those using them to massacre people.

[DogOnPorch]

Of course I would.

Would you classify drone attacks as terrorism?

During WW2, rhubarb fighter sweeps regularly targeted anything that moved...air, ground or sea. Was this terrorism or warfare? Rommel was critically wounded and put out of the war in one such action; this, no-doubt, had an effect on the length of the war in Western Europe. Not, however, soon enough to prevent Germany from unleashing its V weapons upon the population of the UK. Rather that wonder about the morality of V weapons, the Allies carpet bombed the suspected launch sites day and night. Was this terrorism or warfare? While you're debating the ethics of it all, another 1,000 plane raid passes over heading for Dusseldorf.

[Guest]

When they're launched.

Certainly, in the minds of those using them to massacre people.

If they're killing people when they are launched, they should move the barrier back a bit.

[DogOnPorch]

If they're killing people when they are launched, they should move the barrier back a bit.

Yes...assisting Uncle Ahmed making the IED is probably not a safe thing to do.

Meanwhile, I couldn't help but notice the US airmen discussing targeting during that vid.

[Guest]

Meanwhile, I couldn't help but notice the US airmen discussing targeting during that vid.

Yeah, the problem being that they see the vid, and the next time out take more kids.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah, the problem being that they see the vid, and the next time out take more kids.

True, that. And we know the Taliban have no such qualms about putting a bullet into a child's head.

The pilots, however, are clearly waiting for the kid to leave. It was the fellow on the ground that brought the child...putting him in harms way.

[eyeball]

Definitions and classifications are one thing but deflections and apologies will always be in a class of their own.

[DogOnPorch]

Definitions and classifications are one thing but deflections and apologies will always be in a class of their own.

I'm not apologizing for the Taliban bringing children to plant IEDs. It's like a coming of age thing in that part of the globe...waxing your first human being. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of some poor bedraggled kid's journey to manhood.

[GostHacked]

Definitions and classifications are one thing but deflections and apologies will always be in a class of their own.

I tried.

[DogOnPorch]

I tried.

A real massacre...buzz words aside. Much like obscenity, one knows one when one sees one, I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumbula_massacre

[eyeball]

Exactly.

[jbg]

Would you classify drone attacks as terrorism?

If the primary asset that drones are set to strike is a shopping center or office building, sure. If the purpose is to snuff out a terrorist leader or asset, no.

I'm not apologizing for the Taliban bringing children to plant IEDs. It's like a coming of age thing in that part of the globe...waxing your first human being. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of some poor bedraggled kid's journey to manhood.

Or that kid's journey to see Allah, much like children dream of seeing the Wizard of Oz.

[cybercoma]

If the primary asset that drones are set to strike is a shopping center or office building, sure. If the purpose is to snuff out a terrorist leader or asset, no.

If the ends justify the means, why not drop a nuke and be done with it?

[bleeding heart]

If the ends justify the means, why not drop a nuke and be done with it?

This is the sort of remark that's bound to generate more erections than a Hustler layout.

[jbg]

If the ends justify the means, why not drop a nuke and be done with it?

Cyber, all military operations have collateral civilian consequences. Who you are trying to attack is highly relevant.

[Guest]

If the ends justify the means, why not drop a nuke and be done with it?

I guess that's what the Taliban would do, if they had one. Without ends, even. Just use it to see how many infidels could be offed in one go. I suppose that is an end, really.

Drone use on the other hand, seeks to limit innocent casualties. Thank God at least one side does that, eh?

[DogOnPorch]

This is the sort of remark that's bound to generate more erections than a Hustler layout.

Really? Why do you find the use of nuclear weapons sexy?

[DogOnPorch]

I guess that's what the Taliban would do, if they had one. Without ends, even. Just use it to see how many infidels could be offed in one go. I suppose that is an end, really.

Drone use on the other hand, seeks to limit innocent casualties. Thank God at least one side does that, eh?

Not just the Taliban. Numerous talking heads in the Arab-Muslim world have fantasied about giving the West the WMD finger. Here's a timeless classic...

[Bonam]

A real massacre...buzz words aside. Much like obscenity, one knows one when one sees one, I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumbula_massacre

Reading things like that kind of reminds one of what words like massacre and genocide really mean and really entail. To throw these words around carelessly today, as so many here do, is a perversion of language and a trivialization of the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust. Everyone should read that article in full and let it sink in, before continuing their imbecilic discussion about whether a drone accidentally killing someone beside a militant constitutes a "massacre". Unbelievable, just plain unbelievable.

[DogOnPorch]

Reading things like that kind of reminds one of what words like massacre and genocide really mean and really entail. To throw these words around carelessly today, as so many here do, is a perversion of language and a trivialization of the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust. Everyone should read that article in full and let it sink in, before continuing their imbecilic discussion about whether a drone accidentally killing someone beside a militant constitutes a "massacre". Unbelievable, just plain unbelievable.

It really is...and Rumbula is just one example of what went on behind the advancing German lines. The scene was repeated over and over again with 1941-42 being the worst period for mass shootings. By the Summer of 1942, the first Death Camps opened (Treblinka and such) ending the need for the Einsatzgruppen who were using-up significant amounts of ammunition better used on the Red Army.

A page from an Einsatzgruppen Jager report...kinder (& J-kind), of course, means children.