Female Israeli soldiers speak out about the Israeli sickness

[Guest Derek L]

Seeing that Derek isn't here to defend your accusations that he advocates rape, you should allow him to now respond. No?

As for me surrendering to you...you know better.

Well there might be a ever so slight embellishment of my posts referenced by bleeding heart, the crux of my posts were that yes, in the past, present and I’m certain the future, we (as in the “West”) have supported, do currently support and will continue to support brutal regimes throughout the world that abuse their own populace with such measures as murder, torture and yes, rape……….

What bleeding heart is remiss in mentioning from my posts is that though in our culture and society such practices are morally reprehensible, these cultures are not on the same level of equality as our own……As to direct support of such regimes for economic gain, though I stated my firm belief that it’s preferable that we obtain required resources and goods from such regions through civil and equal trade, in some instances this is not possible, as such, we’re required to either support a brutal regime or go without…….

I, like the majority within the “West”, at the end of the day, would rather pay lip service to such victims, but ultimately not go without our cheap gasoline, opiates, African diamonds, corned beef, Walmart tube socks and crappy electronics.

[DogOnPorch]

And I agree...so I guess we're both evil rapers.

BTW...of course bleeding was embellishing. It's what he does. I just wasn't about to play his game of condemn the Derek.

[Guest Derek L]

And I agree...so I guess we're both evil rapers.

BTW...of course bleeding was embellishing. It's what he does. I just wasn't about to play his game of condemn the Derek.

I’m surprised he’s since recovered from reading my initial posts……..I suppose the truth is uncomfortable for some, just as how nasty the real world is, still surprising those with their collective heads in the sand.

Well I'm glad he's now able to speak of the subject.........anyhoo.........Back to your regularly scheduled anti-Semitism

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

This thread has degraded disgracefully.

Anybody who violates any of the forum rules from this point onward will take a time away from posting. Let me remind you all of the following:

No Personal Attacks

Please respect others using this board by refraining from personal attacks. There is a huge difference between disagreeing with a thought or idea and attacking an individual. We encourage lively debate and intelligent critiques of others viewpoints, not tirades against another poster.

Posting Content

It is also important that you stay on topic and keep the discussion focused. If the thread begins to wonder off into a new topic area, start a new thread and continue the discussion under the new thread.

Please do not make me work this hard again. If you encounter a fellow member who is violating the forum rules, report it and ignore him. Do not respond in kind.

Ch. A.

[bud]

CJPME certainly does.

you are once again misrepresenting and spreading misinformation. can you back up any of your claims or are you just going to throw around irresponsible comments and information then expect people to accept them?

I can only imagine why the feel MLW needs several of them to patrol it for Zionist activity. But, over the years, several have been trough here. I'm sure bud and HJ won't be the last.

it's important for you to be clear on the fact that i'm on this forum due to a personal decision and the time i spend on here is due to my own personal belief that there needs to be a bigger voice for the palestinians. i do not have a strong connection with CJPME. i just receive their occasional emails and agree with most of their viewpoints and believe any group that supports international human rights law should be supported. i should also mention that i never use any of CJPME information in my debates. i do my own research and give my own personal views.

[jacee]

you are once again misrepresenting and spreading misinformation.

Does CJPME advocate for right of return?

[DogOnPorch]

Let me since I brought it up...

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=20

[Hudson Jones]

Does CJPME advocate for right of return?

From what I see, they advocate for international law which can be found in resolution 194:

Article 11 - Palestinian Refugees

(The General Assembly) Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

without the UN vote, israel would not have formed. another simple fact you're having a tough time grasping.

B.S.

UN Resolution 181 did not create Israel. HudsonBud you assume this resolution partitioned Palestine or otherwise conferred legal authority or legitimacy to the declaration of the existence of the state of Israel.

Let's look back at the actual events leading up to 181:

1- April 2, 1947, Britain submitted a letter to the U.N. requesting the Secretary General add to the General Assembly 's next annual meeting's agenda the question of Palestine's future with reference to Article 10 of the charter;

2-May 15, 1947 the General Assembly in fact adopted Resolution 106, and that resolution establisheda U.N. Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) to investigate what to do with Palestine and prepare a report to the General Assembly for the next annual meeting pursuant to that agenda item;

3- September 3, 1947 UNSCOP issued its report to the General Assembly suggesting that Palestine be partitioned into separate Jewish and Arab states;

4-Sept. 29, 1947 the Arab Leage rejected the above;

5- The Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question was then established by the General Assembly shortly after the issuance of the UNSCOP report r to continue to study the problem and make further recommendations trying to get an agreement between the Jewish and Arab peoples. In this regard .a sub-committee was then created to examine the legal issues pertaining to Palestine, and issued a report of its conclusions and on November 11. 1947.

saying while both sides had legitimate claims the General Assembly was NOT competent to recommend or enforce, any solution and said the issue was soley a matter for the people of Palestine to decide and went on to state since the majority of people in the remaining Palestinian area were not Arab they could not be given by the UN unilaterally a state which in essence backed away from not just the Balfour declaration but the original Leage of Nations mandate the UN inherited to create a Jewish state;

6. then on November 29, 1947, Resolution 181 recommended a second Palestinian state and a Jewish state with an economic union be formed;

7. on November 30, 1947, the day following the vote, the Palestinian Arabs murdered six Jews in a bus making its way to Jerusalem, and proceeded to murder another Jew in the Tel-Aviv - Jaffa area.

8. then neither Britain nor the UN Security Council took any action to implement the resolution-none- Britain continued detaining Jews attempting to enter Palestine, denied UN representatives access to Palestine during the period between the adoption of Resolution 181 (II) and the termination of the British Mandate in May 1948 and Britain illegally continued to arrest and detain Jews on Cyprus until March 1949.

In 1948 there was also a mass movement of Jews to Palestine from not just Europe as the result of the holocaust but Muslim countries as well as a back lash to pro Nazi Arab regimes.

As well survivors of the 1.5 million Jews who fought in allied armies against the Nazis during WW 2 and holocaust survivors were fighting there way to Palestine.

Just in Poland alone because of the Kielce Pogrom of July 1946, a wave of Holocaust survivors then fled Europe towards Palestine. Between 1945 and 1948, it is estimated 100,000–120,000 Jews left Poland for Palestine.

It was on May 14, 1948, the same day of the British Mandate expiring , the Jewish People's Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum and approved a proclamation declaring the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel and then the Arab League attacked.

So Israel did not come about because of the UN resolution at all. It was ignored by Britain, and the UN and left in a vacuum forced to unilaterally declare independence.

As it did it was immediately attacked by Arab League armies led by British generals and officers leading the Jordanian army and flying for the Egyptian air force.

It was last minute Soviet Jews released by Stalin, Czech military support and volunteers not just Jewish ones but Christian ones rag tag they were whoc ame from from the US, Canada, Britain, France and South Africa who rallied to the Jews in Palestine. They were a small minority and many thought they were on a suicide mission.

The world remained silent t as the Arab League tried to wipe out the Jews.The UN never intervened when the war broke out and this is precisely why as Dog says the borders that came about never were voted on.

They are de facto borders. They came about because that is where the Arab League armies fled from. The borders came out by war not vote.

This attempt to suggest the UN supported Israel is patently false. It abandon the Jews of Palestine.

In fact it was only Elenor Roosevelt single handedly who supported the right of Jews to a homeland while she was a UN official and she was ridiculed and ignored by the UN for taking up the cause of placing holocaust survivors in Palestine.

It is an insult to her legacy to say the UN helped. They did not. They ridiculed her. They made her life hell. The woman was a battle axe and try as they could they could not break her and even Truman came around to her view.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Rue

[jacee]

Let me since I brought it up...

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=20

Ya, and I got a timeout for "hijacking" the thread!!

You owe me, DoP!

Can you tell me whether compensation and restitution were ever paid to Arab families who fled Israel?

Also, why are those who fled still in limbo, effectively stateless?

Edited October 25, 2013 by jacee

[Rue]

Non-sequiter.

Nobody debates the legality of the State of Israel.

This thread was initiated to question the existence of Israel. To try suggest otherwise is pointless.

The person who initiated this thread is on record as stating Zionism needs to be wiped out which nessarily means he called for the destruction of any Jew in Israel or anyone in the world for that matter who support the notion jews have right to live in a Jewish state.

His comments on this thread continue that reference and do not present comments that suggest both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to co-exist as states side by side-in fact they advocate wiping out Israel and replacing it with a state where Jews have no right to statehood.

You should refrain from speaking for others, just for yourself.

In that regard I am not aware of you supporting the right of Israel to live in peace as a Jewish state.

What I am now aware is 'Bud" has suddenly switched to advocating on behalf of international law. Yet this is the same Bud who has never once stated that under that same international law, Israel has the right to defend itself against Hezbollah, Hamas, or any country or terror group because of that same international law.

So let's get serious. These posts are not about balanced analysis and dialogue of possible solutions that recognizes the mutual existence and peace for both Palestinians and Israelis. its about coming on this forum repeatedly with headlines that negate, berate, denigrate, insult and incite resentment and hatred for anything Israeli and then it overflows into comments that insult all Jews and then anyone who thinks Jews have the same right to statehood as Muslims or anyone else.

You want to state in your comments you think both sides have the equal right to exist as states without terror, I will agree with you and from that context knowing you are not just here to present one side as the foil, I can constructively criticize certain Israeli policies as I have but I won't do it in a vacuum. I won't as HudsonBud does, present Israeli actions or policies as if they happen without context or reason and simply because they are evil because Zionists are evil which in my opinion is what each and every comment from them says.

As well when HudsonBud present selective passages to support their views have you ever once read them conceding they might be in error or have only presented a selected piece of the entire historic chain of events they discuss? Hmmm?

You think its an accident large gaps of history are always left out?

Here is what I challenge-snap shot revisionism. Its when you remove one historic event from its context and try give it a new meaning to fit your political agenda. Bud quotes Benny Morris and calls him an historian because that is exactly what Benny Morris was. The problem is even Benny Morris conceded at his university he was not functioning as an historian but a political commentator or editorialist and thus referred to himself as a "new historian".

He was renounced by mainstream historians precisely because he went outside the scope of the function of an historian and began trying to revise historic facts and events to mold them into a political thesis.

He then later retracted what he did and yet he is still quoted by Bud as if his previous comments he subsequently admitted were inaccurate are accurate. This same Benny Morris retracted virtually of all his past works as inaccurate and distorted by subjective political opinion.

On this forum I expect people to have subjective opinion but please don't represent comments as something they are not. Its insulting to all our intelligence.

It also becomes offensive to some of us who have lost colleagues in the Middle East conflict to see them being presented as sick or their people as sick because they regret hurting Palestinians. That is as low as it gets.

Its an insult not just to Israeli soldiers but soldiers all over the world who have done their duty and come home with

remorse and conflicted feelings. These people are not just sometimes colleagues, they are loved ones, and most important they are people who suffer maybe for the rest of their lives so the remainder of us can live in a world where we take the right to be subjective and insulting an inalienable right.

I have nothing but respect for Israeli or any other soldiers. I defer to them. I am not worthy of the effort they have made for me and others.

Please don't suggest this thread did not denigrate them and try exploit their concerns for anti Israeli bashing it did.

Now I will say it. I had a good friend kill himself as he never could come down from his nightmares after what he had to do. He was not a monster. He was not sick. He was a soldier who had to do what he did to prevent people from killing others. He held all his feelings inside until he imploded precisely because he did not discuss his feelings for fear his comments would be exploited by people to incite hatred.

He kept his feelings bottled inside precisely because he knew a HudsonBud would restate those comments out of context one day. Many like him return and turn in-words.

They will not speak so I will. Back off soldiers who express human concerns. If you can not respect the genuine

insights they have then just back off. That is what I say. I also say, I doubt I can never measure up to what they have done and sacrificed but I sure as hell am respectful and grateful for it and that goes for not just the IDF but Canadian, US, British in the Middle East these past 20 years and lesser known soldiers like the Dutch, Polish,

Australians, French who have all sent people in. It also goes for the peacekeeper soldiers from many countries except the Chinese who chose to make a mockery of their mission and become a military apparatus for Hamas and Hezbollah under the guise of being peacekeepers. Japanese, Canadian, Fiji, Fillipino soldiers put their lives in harms way to remain neutral as peacekeepers, the Chinese government chose to make a mockery of that.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

This thread was initiated to question the existence of Israel.

no it wasn't.

[jacee]

This thread was initiated to question the existence of Israel. To try suggest otherwise is pointless.

...

His comments on this thread continue that reference and do not present comments that suggest both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to co-exist as states side by side-in fact they advocate wiping out Israel and replacing it with a state where Jews have no right to statehood.

...

So let's get serious. These posts are not about balanced analysis and dialogue of possible solutions that recognizes the mutual existence and peace for both Palestinians and Israelis. its about coming on this forum repeatedly with headlines that negate, berate, denigrate, insult and incite resentment and hatred for anything Israeli and then it overflows into comments that insult all Jews and then anyone who thinks Jews have the same right to statehood as Muslims or anyone else.

This is the kind of extremist hyperbole that prevents real dialogue and resolution, Rue.

Does Israel only aspire to be like a Muslim state?

Seems a bit limiting.

Does anyone "insult all Jews" who suggests that a real and decent resolution to the situation of stateless Palestinians is necessary?

Of course not.

Perhaps the plight of Israeli soldiers traumatised because they 'have to' do horrible things to Palestinians is a good place to start a discussion of alternative, more appropriate and lasting solutions.

It seems such discussions often descend into hate language, he-said-he-said, eye-for-an-eye revenge language, none of which is constructive in any way, all designed to fail.

All tangled up, bottled up toxic and damaging.

'Eye-for-an-eye' is unending, toxic excuses for not seeking positive resolutions.

Do you have any constructive suggestions at all Rue?

Or do you just wallow in toxic hopelessness, flinging allegations of hate at all who point out that the current situation is untenable and needs cooler heads to find resolutions?

[Rue]

bI shall respond to your comments I have bolded Jacee:

This is the kind of extremist hyperbole that prevents real dialogue and resolution, Rue.

Its a response to the extremist hyperbole that prevents real dialogue and resolution. For you to continue suggesting this post and the threads from HudsonBud engage in dialogue seeking peaceful solutions is hilarious. They name call. They bash. They denigrate. They offer no solutions.

You stated:

Does Israel only aspire to be like a Muslim state? Seems a bit limiting.

Your attempt to misrepresent what I said will not change the meaning of my words. Never did I state Israel aspires to be a Muslim state as you are very aware. What I stated was that there is no difference Israel seeking a Jewish state then there is for the United Kingdom to be wished to be referred to as an Anglican state or many Sharia law nations referring to themselves as Muslim states.

This does not equate a Jewish state to a Muslim state or an Anglican one. All it suggests is that Jews like Anglicans and Muslims seek a state. It doesn't say the same state so your attempt to misrepresent it is illogical. The Jewish state protects Jews from discrimination but unlike Muslim states it provides Muslims in its Jewish states the right to vote, own land, opt out of the army, obtain passports and travel, worship in freedom, seek free legal advise and the state defines Arabic as an official language of the government. The state provides access to education and hospitals. In fact it is precisely because the Jewish state is not anything like a Muslim state it can offer all these things to non Jews. It is precisely for this reason the assertions of HudsonBud that misrepresent what Zionism is and what it offers its non Jewish people is why I challenge their comments and yours.

You stated:

Does anyone "insult all Jews" who suggests that a real and decent resolution to the situation of stateless Palestinians is necessary? Of course not.

You again try misrepresent what I stated and for the second time suggest I asserted something I never did. You also use the tactic of asking a question that forces the answer you give.

At no time have I asserted anything about ANYONE. I do not come on this board and make sweeping generalizations-I defend against them because they are being stated against Jews and Zionists and Israelis. When those references from HudsonBud blur the line and engage in attacks on all Jews and anyone who supports the right of Jews to a Jewish state, then I challenge them.

Anyone engaging in the pretext of criticizing Israeli policy who then engages in denying the holocaust or suggesting that Zionism is racism and creates a double standard where they believe its acceptable for Muslims to have Muslim states but Jews not being able to have a Jewish state and supports international law but then selectively does not if it deals with attacking Jews in Israel who want to remain in a Jewish state engages in anti-Semitism.

This b.s. exercise in these threads of defining what is a "good" (anti-Zionist) or "bad" (Zionist) Jew is crude anti-Semitism. It necessarily suggests Jews are only acceptable if they no their place and that is not at a level of nationhood. Please do not try remove my criticism out of its context and misstate it. I have no issues with someone who criticizes defective Israeli laws, policies, or excessive force used by the IDF if its true. I have levelled criticism at IDF excessive force on this forum. What I have not done is call for ZIonists to be wiped out. Here let me repeat that, WIPED OUT.

You then went on to state and I quote, "it seems such discussions often descend into hate language, he-said-he-said, eye-for-an-eye revenge language, none of which is constructive in any way, all designed to fail."

I would contend it is precisely the intent of the comments from HudsonBud, to incite hatred against Israelis who wish to live in peace as Jews in a Jewish state and yes I do find their threads and posts using your words, "toxic and damaging".

I do think whether you believe it or not that the compassion and critical comments of these soldiers is a cry to the world for assistance-an exercise in saying if you do not want us on the West Bank, help us-help us reach out to Palestinians in a way we do not have to fight with them.

So when you ask me, do I have any constructive suggestions at all Rue, yes I have and many times have tried to express them on this forum only to again and again read back the same HudsonBud anti Israeli threads that offer no solutions, no suggestions for peace, just Israel bashing.

As I have stated in numerous threads:

1-we need to get Palestinian children and Israeli children out of the conflict zone and allow them to interact with one another in neutral countries and circumstances so they can see they are not demons-there are organizations doing this;

2-we need to stop pretending Hamas and Hezbollah and the other terrorist organizations who have made it clear they will never accept a Jewish state under any circumstance and will break any or all laws and attack people all over the world let alone in Israel until this is achieved are interested in peace-they are not-until people like you and HudsonBud stop pretending they are not an obstacle to peace and prevent Israel from withdrawing to 1967 borders-all other dialogue is pointless-Israelis can not talk peace with a gun pointed at their head-like the Irish until terrorists are first disarmed and renounce terrorism as a legitimate political tool of expression no dialogue will come about;

3-after terrorists are disarmed Palestinians and Israelis need time to live separately without the presence of either terrorists or one another's armies involved in their day to day life. Easier said then done. As long as both peoples must fear either soldiers or terrorists they can not and will never be able to become physically capable of being able to talk peace;

4-if terrorism was dismantled and the Arab world said it recognizes a Jewish state, Israel could like it did on the Sinai withdraw from the West Bank-it has in the past but in the past when it withdrew from Lebanon the very day it did Hezbollah attacked Israel and has since continued to violate international law by refusing to disarm and use its terrorist network to create a state of anarchy in Lebanon and ally with Syria in killing 3 legitimately elected leaders-same goes for Hamas-when the IDF withdrew from Gaza the very day it did IDF were shot at and civilians attacked by Hamas and other terror cells-Israel can not withdraw if terrorists remain armed and committed to wiping it out-plan and simple-you want the IDF out-disarm the terrorists and make the IDF a moot point so they can return to their own country and not have to operate as a preventative force to protect their people;

5-the long term method to promote peaceful co-existence is to create networks of interactive projects such as projects to transport water by pipeline, build sewage disposal units, improve electricity, roads, infrastructure at the municipal level-such alliances were possible and shown to be possible when Israel did just that working with charities in Gaza-Gaza destroyed all that sending its people back to stone age-get rid of the terrorists who threaten to kill their fellow Palestinians for being peaceful with Israelis and Israel can crack down on its extremists who use the threat of terrorism as a pretense to remain hateful of Palestinians and remain armed;

6-Israel has already shown what the solution is-joint infrastructure processes, sharing of water, food, education, social services and hospitals-so have progressive Moderate Palestinians-those moderates can't do what they can do if terrorists dominate the dialogue;

7-contain people like you and HudsonBud and all the other arm chair geniuses and experts on Israel and Palestine-keep them as far away from Palestinians and Israelis as possible-one of the greatest impediments to peace are people like you and HudsonBud engaging in one sided criticism that only makes the other side become defensive and dig in-no you don't want won't get Israel to stand down from military command leaving it as it is now threatened by terrorism;

8-disengage extremist religious groups from the political dialogue- Israel has and continues to do so-even Benjamin Netanyahu who relied on alliances with some very rigid extremist religious groups openly chastised them and regrouped with Labour and Kadima his arch enemies-Netanyahu brought back into his cabinet as Justice Minister Tzipi Levni-someone I support; he did so to try bring back people into the dialogue who have not given up or who will use extremist language, something I commend him-how about Abbas-do you think as it exists now he is moderate let alone working with moderates? This is a man who stated he would never recognize Israel as a Jewish state and would only recognize it as a state if it was dismantled as a Jewish state and opened up for anyone referring to themselves as Palestinian having the right to enter the country and arbitrarily seize land from Jewish Israelis. This kind of premises and precondition to talking peace makes dialogue with him a farse-this is a man who wrote his thesis in university denying the holocaust-this is a man who like Arafat never had or has any intention of living side by side a Jewish state and continues to speak to his people each day promising them he will take back not just Israel but Jordan-until moderate Palestinians can become engaged in Palestinian politics and reach out to Israelis-no Israeli moderates have a peace partner to reach back to and the only way that happens is to deal head on with this psychic impasse and denial of the collective Arab world that they can never accept a Jewish state-until they deal with that denial, dialogue for peace is not possible.

No Israel can not engage in peace talks when Iran openly states Israel must be wiped out as a Zionist entity. No it can't engage in dialogue for peace when Iran funds and finances terrorists dedicated on destroying Israel as a Jewish state.

No Israel can not engage in peace talks when the very people it needs to reach out to for peace are living in fascist regimes wiping each other out. How does Israel talk and who do they talk to? Who Egypt in the midst of a civil war and depending on its armed forces to keep it from anarchy and barely at that? Who failed states like Somalia, and Libya? Who Yemen whose leaders might be dead tomorrow as the entire nation is over-run by Muslim extremists? Why Syria? Sudan? Iraq? Lebanon? Who is even stable enough to be able to present a government with authority to speak let alone inspire their people to live peacefully?

Who Saudi Arabia who fund extremist Sunni Muslim terrorists and play them off the US? Who the Gulf Emirate states whose citizens are growing restless with the lack of democracy? Who, Turkey whose leader is openly anti semetic and applauds anti-Semite cartoons and works with Hamas offering them support?

Who Sudan?

You ask me for solutions? I have solutions. I have many ideas now who do I speak with? Can you suggest someone? I know the peaceful and moderate Muslims that I share views with. You think they dare go back to the Middle East? You think they would last a day saying they want peace with Israel?

Until the Arab world confronts its own demons, its own inability to achieve democracy and non violent regimes, until it can get rid of its regimes that rely on Mukbarat political police to beat their civilians into submission, until the day comes that the Arab world evolves further to an extent where it can engage in criticism of itself and challenge some of its rigid views, its hard to talk peace.

Unlike the Arab world, Israel is. It is involved in an open, deeply critical dialogue as it always has from the day it began. The problem is while Israel can and does, the Arab world does not and so HudsonBud and a handful of armchair geniuses sit and criticize Israel using Israel's own honest critiques and turn and ignore the Arab world and refuse to talk of its ills, malaise, ignorance and hatred.

Until the Arab world can do what Israel does and allow open dialogue and not turn on its own people for doing so, peace is impossible. You can not talk peace with a people killing themselves. That is illogical.

Now before you criticize me for things I have never stated here me loud and clear. Don't pose questions asking me if I am interested in peace when your very words show you are not interested in what I have to say and have already decided you know what I think and feel it appropriate to claim I wallow, etc. You engage in the very toxic dialogue you talk of.

I do not wallow. I talk. I express clear and blunt views. I do anything but wallow.

Here it is plain as it can be stated-dismantle terrorism and peace will come.

[jacee]

... this post and the threads from HudsonBud engage in dialogue seeking peaceful solutions is hilarious. They name call. They bash. They denigrate. They offer no solutions.

You know what rue? I might read one of your lengthy posts when/if you stop the gross generalizations of "theytheytheythey".

[Guest American Woman]

You know what rue? I might read one of your lengthy posts when/if you stop the gross generalizations of "theytheytheythey".

Only they get to do that, eh?

I've been reading this thread with interest. It's clear that a Jewish state is not being supported, even as many Islamic states are already in existence. This is a problem IMO, as it's all too telling.

[Rue]

You know what rue? I might read one of your lengthy posts when/if you stop the gross generalizations of "theytheytheythey".

Right. It doesn't stop you from reading and advocating on the gross generalizations HudsonBud makes about Zionists now

does it. You accuse me of gross generalizations? Why because I said the Arab world has no stable countries at this point to engage in peace dialogue with? Really now. Oh go on then, show one moderate, one moderate Palestinian leader of any kind let alone a moderate Arab leader at this time who has stood up and said they recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Show me one. That is not a generalization, that is a fact.

You are not being genuine in your responses with me. You can't point to one post where I have called all Arabs terrorists and called on all of them to be wiped out or called on all Muslims with Sharia law states to be wiped out as has Hudson in reverse about Jews in Israel and you won't. Try as you might to defend their words, they are challenged and you do not respond to the points I raise, in fact you avoid the points I raise. This latest excuse for not reading what I state is laughable.

You want to spin for HudsonBud's comments go ahead.

[jacee]

I want you to respond to the content of MY posts, not posts by other people, without generalizing, stereotyping, accusing me of holding views that I have not expressed and do not hold.

I'd appreciate intelligent interchange, not excruciatingly lengthy rambling diatribes that don't address my comments/questions, just insult me and falsely accuse me of being part of some 'anti-Jew' conspiracy.

Your unfounded accusations are extremely offensive to me, and such personal attacks are a violation of forum rules.

Your post above (and others) is an attack on HudBud.

It has NOTHING to do with me!

An apology would be appropriate.

Edited October 27, 2013 by jacee

[Rue]

I want you to respond to the content of MY posts, not posts by other people, without generalizing, stereotyping, accusing me of holding views that I have not expressed and do not hold.

I'd appreciate intelligent interchange, not excruciatingly lengthy rambling diatribes that don't address my comments/questions, just insult me and falsely accuse me of being part of some 'anti-Jew' conspiracy.

Your unfounded accusations are extremely offensive to me, and such personal attacks are a violation of forum rules.

Your post above (and others) is an attack on HudBud.

It has NOTHING to do with me!

An apology would be appropriate.

I am challenging your words. In fact I do not know who you are nor do I care.

I continue to debate/challenge the comments of HudsonBud and your comments defending their positions, misrepresenting my positions and/or challenging my right to debate claiming its a personal attack against you or them.

I repeat again the point I made to your last two threads to me so there is no misunderstanding:

1-I believe HudsonBud are engaging in a continuing transmission of anti Israel posts questioning Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.

2-I believe their comments misappropriated the words of IDF soldiers to try incite resentment, anger, hatred and intolerance of Israeli Jews who choose to live as Jews in a Jewish state and I challenged that and explained why.

3-I then stated I found your allegation I was generalizing illogical when clearly I came on this post to challenge their generalizations. I also stated I found your allegation inconsistent and selective and therefore lacking in credibility since you only criticize my alleged generalizations but not their generalizations about Zionists, the IDF and Israel.

4-I now challenge your exercise of trying to suggest you are a victim because I have challenged your words.

5-My words speak to your words, period.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Should just write her a poem Rue.

[jacee]

I am challenging your words. In fact I do not know who you are nor do I care.

I continue to debate/challenge the comments of HudsonBud and your comments defending their positions, misrepresenting my positions and/or challenging my right to debate claiming its a personal attack against you or them.

My posts have nothing to do with HudBud's posts.

If you can't respond ONLY to the content of mine, without maligning me by generalizing, stereotyping, putting words in my mouth that I did not say, accusing me of thoughts I don't have ... then we're done here.

I repeat again the point I made to your last two threads to me so there is no misunderstanding:

1-I believe HudsonBud are engaging in a continuing transmission of anti Israel posts questioning Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.

2-I believe their comments misappropriated the words of IDF soldiers to try incite resentment, anger, hatred and intolerance of Israeli Jews who choose to live as Jews in a Jewish state and I challenged that and explained why.

This is irrelevant to MY posts.

3-I then stated I found your allegation I was generalizing illogical when clearly I came on this post to challenge their generalizations. I also stated I found your allegation inconsistent and selective and therefore lacking in credibility since you only criticize my alleged generalizations but not their generalizations about Zionists, the IDF and Israel.

This is not relevant to MY posts.

4-I now challenge your exercise of trying to suggest you are a victim because I have challenged your words.

5-My words speak to your words, period.

Not in this universe!

I see you are incapable of thinking beyond paranoid stereotypes, incapable of responding to what I actually said, incapable of real dialogue, so we're done here.

Edited October 28, 2013 by jacee

[Rue]

Jacee you stated:

I see you are incapable of thinking beyond paranoid stereotypes, incapable of responding to what I actually said, incapable of real dialogue, so we're done here.

I have challenged comments on this post that I believe are negative generalizations about Zionism that in my opinion denigrate all Zionists, all Jews who live in Israel and anyone who supports the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.

I also contend they form part of an on-going dialogue of posts initiated by HudsonBud that can be referenced back to because the current comments repeat the same comments and allegations as many of the previous posts and threads about Israel.

I would kindly remind you that Bud confirmed to Dog in one of his threads responding to this post that he believes Israel should be dismantled as a Jewish state and that Hudson Bud is on record for calling on Zionists to be wiped out and referring to them as disgusting.

Here are specific negative generalizations about Zionism and necessarily all Zionists I challenged on this post:

from Hudson:

"Zionism promotes and practices the acceptance of human rights violations and since those who are committing them have impunity after committing their crimes, there is almost no limit in how far Israeli soldiers will go in their vile treatment of Palestinians:"

Zionism = Racism

This is admitted by many ZIonists. In order to preserve the Jewishness of Israel, there is no choice but to be racist. No choice but to have racist laws. In order for the dream of Greater Israel to be revealed, there is no choice but to discriminate against the people the ZIonists want the land from.

Look at these disgusting people in Israel:

from Bud

any ideology and practice that takes away the rights of others, like zionism does, should be outlawed. zionism has turned into an ugly and destructive colonialist cult...

this is what zionism is and this is why zionism should be rejected by israelis and jews around the world, as well as the governments of the western nations….

from Jacee

Are you saying that true Zionists are those who will stand up against Israel's aggression against Palestinians?

..with ever expanding borders (Zionists advocate Israel shouldexpand non stop)..

from Ghost

I like Jews, and don't mind Israelis. Those Zionists on the other hand.

I don't engage in bigotry against Zionists.

I have also challenged the following comments because I believe their content, tone and personal implications incite hatred and intolerance:

from Hudson

Read and learn:

Pay attention and learn:

Look at these disgusting people in Israel

from Bud

you guys are an embarrassment. one lie and misinformation after another.

from Ghost

I like Jews, and don't mind Israelis. Those Zionists on the other hand.

I don't engage in bigotry against Zionists.

from you Jacee

you just wallow in toxic hopelessness, flinging allegations of hate .This is the kind of extremist hyperbole that prevents real dialogue and resolution...

I would appreciate intelligent interchange, not excruciatingly lengthy rambling diatribes...

you are incapable of thinking beyond paranoid stereotypes

(you are)incapable of real dialogue)...

I believe the above comments inject a personal context to the threads that clearly shows disrespect to those it addresses and so have challenged them and now your continuing claim you are a victim of my challenges to all of the above.

I have also challenged your repeated assertions that tcertain specific posts you responded with and I challenged withreference back to HudsonBud comments were not connnected to their posts , i.e., you stated: " My posts have nothing to do with HudBud's posts."

I will clarify that challenge I am making further. I find your denial of a connection between your positions stated and their positions stated that I challenged in context to one another and deny is connected, inconsistent, because your very words established that connection:

you just wallow in toxic hopelessness, flinging allegations of hate at all who point out that the current situation is untenable and needs cooler heads to find resolutions? ...

...Are you saying that true Zionists are those who will stand up against Israel's aggression against Palestinians?

...with ever expanding borders (Zionists want Israel to expand non stop)

Edited October 28, 2013 by Rue

[jacee]

You lump my posts with posts of others that have nothing to do with me.

My position is that the rights of Israelis and Palestinians must be addressed for any real solution to occur.

I don't believe that lumping me in the category 'enemy' and attacking me for the words of others is very constructive.

You still haven't answered my posts without doing so.

And your posts are too just too long to read.

Edited October 28, 2013 by jacee

[Bonam]

And your posts are too just too long to read.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is a complex issue, not for people who can't manage to read a post longer than a few sentences. I know modern media likes to reduce issues to 2 second sound bites, but some things really are more complex than that, and you'll have to develop your attention span if you want to intelligently debate them.

People's short attention spans is in fact why I think so much of this criticism of Israel exists. People forget the context of the issue and just see that currently Palestinians = underdogs and automatically sympathize with them, because of the cultural/media/film bias to do so.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Bonam

[jacee]

The Arab-Israeli conflict is a complex issue, not for people who can't manage to read a post longer than a few sentences. I know modern media likes to reduce issues to 2 second sound bites, but some things really are more complex than that, and you'll have to develop your attention span if you want to intelligently debate them.

Rue's rambling accusatory posts aren't contributing to solutions, imo.

People's short attention spans is in fact why I think so much of this criticism of Israel exists. People forget the context of the issue and just see that currently Palestinians = underdogs and automatically sympathize with them, because of the cultural/media/film bias to do so.

It's "people's" fault? ... the "media's" fault?

If you never rise above blaming, you aren't seeking resolution.

Is that what it's about?

Just going in circles and never resolving anything?

Edited October 29, 2013 by jacee