Female Israeli soldiers speak out about the Israeli sickness

[Bonam]

Dre, I think we've all been over the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict on this forum enough times. I am well aware of the various details, as I'm sure you remember from previous discussions we have had on the issue.

Needless to say, I do not agree with your characterization of Zionism as a "racist ideology". There is nothing racist about the belief that a particular people should have a sovereign state. As I've said many times, I think all peoples that want one should have a state, there's really no reason not to let them have it. The days of empire building are long behind us, nations are inter-related through trade whether they are part of a larger nation or not. Some tiny minority of Zionists may believe in the idea of "greater Israel" like some tiny minority of socialists believe in communist revolution, but that is not representative of the whole. The vast majority of Zionists simply believe Israel should continue to exist, and to continue to exist as a Jewish state, as it has every right to do.

Nor do I agree that Israel is an equal "co-aggressor". Whatever you may want to say about the 6 day war... what of 1948 and 1973? What of the more recent operations, all of which have been responses to blatant and indiscriminate aggression by terrorist groups? As much as some people want to quibble over the "proportionality" of Israel's responses (a nonsensical concept), it is clear who the aggressor was in every case. Not sure what more there is to say here without rehashing it all over again.

Given the situation Israel is faced with, it has behaved with remarkable restraint, probably too much so in fact. No other Western people would have tolerated as much restraint from their leaders if faced with the kind of malevolence and aggression that the Arabs have displayed towards Israel for 65 years. If we Canadians or Americans or our European friends had been there, we would have annihilated our aggressive neighbors long ago. Jews are a people that have accepted being beaten down, murdered, and living as third class citizens for over 2000 years, and despite their best efforts at becoming more assertive, are having trouble breaking with the habit in the early days of their new state. I for one hope Israel's leaders keep doing what it takes to keep the country safe and its enemies weak, despite the opposition of some of their own people who would rather bow down to the will of the "international community" and watch as they lose everything.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Bonam

[bud]

Indeed, it certainly has a certain history. The state of Israel was established in perhaps one of the most peaceful and civilized ways of about any state in history, and that is in part of a result of the nature of the Zionist movement, which was always comprised of intellectuals who preferred negotiation and purchases to violence.

what fantasy world do you live in?

suddenly, just like that, bonam re-writes history by deleting the fact that over 700,000 palestinians were killed or forcibly displaced and some escaped to flee the violent jewish militias that were going from village to town, burning homes down. over 500 palestinian villages were depopulated and destroyed in what is now the state of israel. this happened just over 60 years ago.

oh and not long before that, you had zionist terrorist groups whose leaders eventually became the leaders of the state of israel.

[Rue]

what fantasy world do you live in?

suddenly, just like that, bonam re-writes history by deleting the fact that over 700,000 palestinians were killed or forcibly displaced oh and not long before that, you had zionist terrorist groups whose leaders eventually became the leaders of the state of israel.

He lives in a world that attempts to challenge the revisionist world you live in.

To start with your number of 700,000 is what? You think its accurate? You think you can make a sweeping statement suggestin 700,000 Palestinians were killed let alone displaced mixing to the 2 allegations together to try suggest 700,000 may have been killed?

What you want to spin numbers and try pass yourself off as the accurate purveyor of Middle East history after you have repeatedly been shown on this board to provide false statistics and facts? Really HudsonBud? You want to play holier than thou when it comes to reciting the history of the Middle East with your record on this forum for misrepresentations?

The facts are there for anyone to find. The actual number of Arab peoples displaced remains somewhere between 250,000 to about 498,000. You just so happened to use 700,000 because that coincidentally HudsonBud is the exact number of Jews thrown out of Arab countries and forced to flee to Israel while another 200,000 fled to relatives for the most part in the US then France then Britain, Argentina, Canada.

You want to play with numbers HudsonBud the numbers are public domain and you can spin them all you want it won'tchange them.

You want to talk about spinning and revising history-this lame tactic of suggesting that the 250 members of Irgun and another 35 or so int he Levi-Stern gang constituted the entire sum of Jewish settlers that fought for their lives and to establish a country-go on try.

Again people can find out for themselves how many people at the peek of Irgun were members and how many were in the Levi Stern gang. The fact is they were terrorists but your attempt to interchange them with 99.99% of the people who founded Israel and in fact denounced their tactics speaks for itself. Its part of the spinning you play and its to be challenged and brought up when you try portray yourself as the purveyor of accurate history.

Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were part of Irgun yes. Your attempts to suggest that because they embraced terror tactics this makes all Zionists terrorists is laughable. This coming from someone who supports Hamas,Hezbollah, Assad, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran. This coming from HudsonBud who embraces the violent dismantling of Israel.

How is it you are so concerned as to alleged Israeli Zionist terrorists but never a mention on this forum as to the terrorists who to this day are dedicated to the violent removal of Israel?

Hmmm? Do you suppose that makes you a righteous purveyor of the actual history of the Middle East?

Oh but wait, let's back up. You throw out the word Palestinian. Now that's interesting because the people of the West Bank, Israel and Gaza who you would refer to Palestinians back in 1948 never identified with that name and that name was not coined as a political identification status reference until 1967 by Arafat but please do lecture us on history and your accusing others of engaging in fantasy,

By the way speaking about fantasy just how many of the Arab peoples on the West Bank, in pre-Israel and in the Gaza were actually Palestinian and who were in fact Arabs that came from other areas and in fact displaced Palestinians after 1920 when Britain deliberately created the Palestinian state of Transjordan which to this day in its constitution prohibits Jews from being citizens? Where were you when these Arabs flooded in displacing Palestinians? Where were you when Arafat blew up the Land Titles Office on the West Bank because Arabs on the West Bank were in fact in a civil war with Arabs who moved to the West Bank and displaced them and stole their land? Well then? See in your revised script, only Jews displaced Palestinians. No Arabs displaced Palestinians.

In your world you take anyone who is not Jewish in the Middle East and refer to them as Palestinian if they claim they want land in Israel.

In your world you deny that those Palestinians or Arabs who chose to stay in Israel and not leave blatantly contradicting your assertion and inference they all fled or were killed-were granted citizenship. The country made Arabic an official protected language. The country upheld the land titles of these people at the Supreme Court of Israel. It allows these people to vote, petition the government, openly criticize he government, opt out of military service. It has provided these people the highest standard of living of any Christians or Muslims in the Middle East and none of these people have renounced their Israeli citizenship nor do they want to.

This is a country that provides over 125 free legal associations to represent any non Jew in Israel openly challenge the state.

This is a world, where all the rights afforded these people are the very rights no Jew is allowed in a Sharia law state.

This is a world where the very rights afforded to non Jews because of the cornerstone of Zionism not to discriminate against non Jews is ignored by you deliberately.

This is a world where the very rights of the non Jew in Israel never existed and never will exist for Jews or for that matter any non Muslim in a Sharia law nation.

This is a world where you repeat that Israel discriminates against non Jewish Israeli citizens when you in fact are referring to people born outside Israel who in your world magically have a right to return to Israel claiming ancestry there although they were never born there and may be descended from Arab peoples who never came from Palestine.

In your world the only people allowed to claim a right to land they were never born in is afforded any Arab who self identifies as Palestinian and you talk about fantasy?

You want to talk about fantasy?

Who lives in a world where the Egyptians created an open air prison to jail Arabs the Arab League told to leave the country now called Israel after the war was over? Who captured the Arabs told to leave Israel by the Arab League and place them in refugee camps openly telling the world these people would remain indefinitely detained as pawns, as prisoners, those were the words used by the Aab League, until such time as the world dismantled Israel?

Who lives in a world where Muslims can have states that are Muslim and do not separate state from religion and create dhimmitude a system of apartheid and rampant discrimination against non Muslims and then in the next breath accuses Israel of being racist for wanting a Jewish state?

Who lives in this world of double standard where it apologizes for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and repeatedly calls for the destruction of Israel and looks the other way on terrorism, but suddenly tries to depict all Zionists as terrorists?

Who lives in the world where all Zionists are terrorists but if we say the same about Arabs it would be the first to cry bigotry?

Give it a rest HudsonBud. We all know the script. You wanna play your selective song-I will scratch up that record with ease.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

Can I make a poem to? Or would I be accused of being an anti-semite and get my ass banned from here?

Can I make a poem to? Or would I be accused of being an anti-semite and get my ass banned from here?

Hey you came on the forum to express selectivity as to Jews and explains which ones you like and which ones you don't.

You came on this forum to suggest you will engage in a negative stereotype of any Jew or Israeli citizen who doesn't want their state dismantled.

You came on this forum to suggest you will engage in negative stsreotypes of anyone who believes Jews have a right to a nation.

You want to try justify negative stereotyping? Really? You came on this board in the middle of this thread to gloat about being

discriminatory against Zionists.

So I wrote a poem.

Its what I do. I feel inspired by discrimination and my creative juices (jewz) flow.

Why here is another:

see now if I use dah word Zionist

instead of Jew

I can express dislike for dem chosen few

who think they can live in their own nation in the Middle East

but I want everyone to collectively call a beast

that's the logic and reasoning I use

and dat Rue can blow his fuse

but I get to say who I hate

an if you don't like it that's just grate

dah rue gets it and he simply says diss

oh you bet I know how to hiss

each time you insult me for being alive

I'z gonna shuck and jive.

[GostHacked]

Holy crap Rue. Wtf? Screw it, thread's yours!

[DogOnPorch]

what fantasy world do you live in?

suddenly, just like that, bonam re-writes history by deleting the fact that over 700,000 palestinians were killed or forcibly displaced and some escaped to flee the violent jewish militias that were going from village to town, burning homes down. over 500 palestinian villages were depopulated and destroyed in what is now the state of israel. this happened just over 60 years ago.

oh and not long before that, you had zionist terrorist groups whose leaders eventually became the leaders of the state of israel.

Odd...you forgot to mention all the Jews driven from their homes. I'm sure you merely forgot. Plus a wee point of order: the Arabs started the war...led by an escaped Nazi that was busy gassing Jews a few short years previous. Did you forget that bit? Must have...

[bud]

you guys are an embarrassment. one lie and misinformation after another.

seriously, i'm still trying to get over the crap that bonam spewed out:

the nature of the Zionist movement, which was always comprised of intellectuals who preferred negotiation and purchases to violence.

for those who are struggling with the numbers and facts:

approximately 711,000 to 725,000 palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes. that's 80% of the palestinians living in what is now israel, who left due to being expelled or running away from the israeli military and zionist militias.

The number of Palestinian refugees has been a matter of dispute. Since 1949, Arab spokespeople have claimed that the number is between 900,000 and 1 million, while spokespeople for the Israeli government have usually set the number at about 520,000. The economic Delegation of the United Nations and United Nations Relief and Works agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) set the number at 726,000 people. Other estimates, for example, in February 1949, the British set the number of refugees at 810,000.

link

one of the reasons some of the palestinians fled their homes (and never allowed to go back) was due to several massacres done by the zionist militias. the massacres have been documented. the number of people killed differ, but there is no dispute that massacres happened.

According to Morris, the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war. Aryeh Yizthaki attests 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each. Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period and Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place.

source

[Bonam]

According to Morris, the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war. Aryeh Yizthaki attests 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each. Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period and Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place.

So something like a thousand civilian victims (10x50 + 14x (<50)) in these "massacres" then? So basically a very very low casualty count for any kind of war or unrest. Sounds to me like Israel showed remarkable restraint in their war of independence, as in every other conflict. Didn't Hamas and Fatah kill more Palestinians than that just in their feuds with each other? As for the 700,000 that fled, they did so at the urging of their leaders. Those that remained behind in 1948 became Israeli citizens and now live far better off than most Arabs in the middle-east.

[DogOnPorch]

you guys are an embarrassment. one lie and misinformation after another.

seriously, i'm still trying to get over the crap that bonam spewed out:

for those who are struggling with the numbers and facts:

approximately 711,000 to 725,000 palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes. that's 80% of the palestinians living in what is now israel, who left due to being expelled or running away from the israeli military and zionist militias.

The number of Palestinian refugees has been a matter of dispute. Since 1949, Arab spokespeople have claimed that the number is between 900,000 and 1 million, while spokespeople for the Israeli government have usually set the number at about 520,000. The economic Delegation of the United Nations and United Nations Relief and Works agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) set the number at 726,000 people. Other estimates, for example, in February 1949, the British set the number of refugees at 810,000.

link

one of the reasons some of the palestinians fled their homes (and never allowed to go back) was due to several massacres done by the zionist militias. the massacres have been documented. the number of people killed differ, but there is no dispute that massacres happened.

According to Morris, the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war. Aryeh Yizthaki attests 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each. Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period and Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place.

source

How many massacres of Jews were the Arabs responsible for?

[jacee]

Your comments indicate someone brought up to believe .....

You've sunk to a new low, rue.

[jacee]

How many massacres of Jews were the Arabs responsible for?

You think one cancels another?

How many future massacres are you willing to excuse?

.

[jacee]

You seem to keep forgetting what zionism actually is. It is simply the belief that the Jewish people should have a sovereign and independent state.

With ever expanding borders ...

[jacee]

Zionism is a political movement that you can dislike, like, love, or hate regardless of how you feel about Jews. A lot of jews dont like it very much either.

Thank you dre.

[Rue]

You think one cancels another?

How many future massacres are you willing to excuse?

.

No but here is the point. There were more massacres of Jews then there were Arabs. More to the point selectively pointing out only one side engaged in war means what? do you think jews acted in a vacuum for no reason?

isn't that the point of this ridiculous pissing match-to selectively point out what Jews did to defend themselves while ignoring what the Arab world inflicted upon them? Isn't that the point-to selectively take snapshots of only those events that play into the anti Israel agenda and ignore the rest?

I mean how much more two faced can one get then to come on this forum, take the compassionate words of soldiers and try twist them? The very compassionate IDF this propoganda source HudsonBud has depicted over and over again as an unfeeling monster now suddenly is compassionate and caring provided its twisted to try suggest these soldiers are anti Zionist?

What a crock.

[Rue]

dre, on 17 Oct 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Zionism is a political movement that you can dislike, like, love, or hate regardless of how you feel about Jews. A lot of jews dont like it very much either.

Thank you dre.

Thanks for what? What Dre now speaks for jews. He presumes to speak for others?

Who are these " a lot of Jews"?

Does he know? Do you?

What a meaningless reference thrown out.

Now you thank Dre for coming up with an imaginary reference to " a lot " of anti Zionist Jews who agree with him?

Lol.

Right.

Thanks. That was meaningful. That's the way to establish credibility when making a point.

[Rue]

With ever expanding borders ...

What expanding borders?

The Israelis withdrew from Gaza and the very day they withdrew Hamas attacked them.

They withdrew from Lebanon the very next day Hezbollah attacked them and violated its agreement with the UN to disarm.

What expansion?

Do you refer to expanded settlements on the West Bank-say so. Stop mincing with the words.

You want to suggest Israel has no right at all to the West Bank? Then go back and explain how 80% of the area called Palestine was illegally seized by the British and turned into a Palestinian state of TransJordan which to this day has a constitution prohibiting Jews from being citizens.Stop selectively ignoring those parts of the origin of the land dispute that don't suit your agenda.

Explain why you selectively ignore that the British and in particular Winston Churchill in his memoirs admitted deliberately lying to the League of Nations and illegally creating Jordan out of land intended for a Jewish state because while it told the League of Nations it would procure a Jewish state, at the same time it told its Arab allies it would never allow a Jewish state.

How is it you selectively start with history assuming the West Bank is not part of any Jewish land?

Your history is selective. Jews need not apologize to you for living in Israel their country of origin or on the West Bank where they lived in ancient days.. You have no right to presume to judge them just as you or Dre have no right to speak for Palestinians or Jews, just yourselves.

What you want to be selective like Dre and pretend Jews are not indigenous to the West Bank and Israel? Go on try reinvent history. How convenient.

I have said it many times. A practical solution to this conflict can only come about when a second Palestinian country is created for Palestinians on the West Bank. That can not happen until Fatah Hawks, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the current leader of the Palestnian Authority denounce terror and recognize the state of Israel as a Jewish state with the right to live free of terror and people dedicated to its destruction.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

You've sunk to a new low, rue.

What you think you can come on this forum and denigrate Jews and the right of Jews to a nation and I have sunk to a new low? How selective. HudsonBud came on this site, takes the compassion of IDF to suggest they are anti Zionist and mentally ill to boot, and you accuse me of a new low? Really?

What I don't know my place? I should have just shucked and jived with the comments? Is that it?

Do we reduce every sound bite from HudsonBud to insulting Jews for wanting to feel free and secure in their own nation? That makes them evil?

Isn't that the point of these attacks on this forum-to set a new low, one low after the next in insulting Jews who dare think they have the right to live in a land where never again will they be persecuted for the very comments that flow across this board?

Jacee I have only started my comments.

You want to join along in a series of denigrations against people under the pretext they are Zionist I have the right to defend them and myself for being Zionists.

Never again Jacee will any of us apologize for existing or wanting to exist? Low? Go on try throw out all the references to expansionist evil Zionists all you want.

[Rue]

You think one cancels another?

How many future massacres are you willing to excuse?

.

How about you? How many future masscres of Jews by terrorists in Israel are you willing to excuse?

[Rue]

you guys are an embarrassment. one lie and misinformation after another.

seriously, i'm still trying to get over the crap that bonam spewed out:

for those who are struggling with the numbers and facts:

approximately 711,000 to 725,000 palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes. that's 80% of the palestinians living in what is now israel, who left due to being expelled or running away from the israeli military and zionist militias.

The number of Palestinian refugees has been a matter of dispute. Since 1949, Arab spokespeople have claimed that the number is between 900,000 and 1 million, while spokespeople for the Israeli government have usually set the number at about 520,000. The economic Delegation of the United Nations and United Nations Relief and Works agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) set the number at 726,000 people. Other estimates, for example, in February 1949, the British set the number of refugees at 810,000.

link

one of the reasons some of the palestinians fled their homes (and never allowed to go back) was due to several massacres done by the zionist militias. the massacres have been documented. the number of people killed differ, but there is no dispute that massacres happened.

According to Morris, the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war. Aryeh Yizthaki attests 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each. Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period and Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place.

source

Interesting you quote someone who has now renounced the very words you quote as being inaccurate. Lol. Good one Bud.

Bud you have no monopoly on numbers.

You want to play the link game? Really?

http://eretzyisroel.org/~peters/refugees.html

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

Edited October 18, 2013 by Rue

[DogOnPorch]

You think one cancels another?

How many future massacres are you willing to excuse?

.

You said that. I didn't. I'd appreciate it if you stick to what I write.

I believe that if we're going to delve into history, we might as well be accurate. Sound good to you? That means not being selective. Bud would have us think only the terrorist group Irgun engaged in massacres. This is simply untrue. Bud would rather we simply forget events like Kfar Etzion and Hadassah as they do not fit with his "Arabs = innocent victims" narrative that he hopes to pass off in typical 'Big Lie' fashion.

[Hudson Jones]

Interesting you quote someone who has now renounced the very words you quote as being inaccurate. Lol. Good one Bud.

Bud you have no monopoly on numbers.

You want to play the link game? Really?

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

This is from your own link that you have posted, Rue. Read and learn:

On June 22, 1941 Joseph Weitz, a former director of settlement in the Jewish Agency, wrote in his diary: "Amongst ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country. No 'development' will bring us closer to our aim to be an independent people in this small country. After the Arabs are transferred, the country will be wide open for us; with the Arabs staying the country will remain narrow and restricted.... There is no room for compromise on this point....land purchasing....will not bring about the state;.... The only way is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries, all of them, except perhaps Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Old Jerusalem. Not a single village or a single tribe must be left. And the transfer must be done through their absorption in Iraq and Syria and even in Transjordan. For that goal, money will be found - even a lot of money. And only then will the country be able to absorb millions of Jews.... There is no other solution." - (Weitz Diary, entry dated 20 December 1940, pp.1090-91, Central Zionist Archives, Jerusalem.)

"I made a summary of a list of the Arab villages, which in my opinion must be cleared out in order to complete Jewish regions. I also made a summary of the places that have land disputes and must be settled by military means." - (Weitz Diary, entry dated 18 April 1948, p. 2358, CZA)

Here is the leader of a Zionist terrorist group, who later became Israel's prime minister - Pay attention and learn:

"… we [the Haganah] adopt the system of aggressive defence; during the assault we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the [Arab] place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place." - (Ben-Gurion's advice on 19 December 1947. Cited in Simha Flapan

This is Zionism for you. Not this laughable b.s., repeated by the deluded, ignorant and the lying:

the nature of the Zionist movement, which was always comprised of intellectuals who preferred negotiation and purchases to violence.

Here is a testimony of an Israeli soldier who was there and participated in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p8IjnRsRPCQ

Edited October 18, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Hudson Jones]

Zionism = Racism

This is admitted by many ZIonists. In order to preserve the Jewishness of Israel, there is no choice but to be racist. No choice but to have racist laws. In order for the dream of Greater Israel to be revealed, there is no choice but to discriminate against the people the ZIonists want the land from.

Look at these disgusting people in Israel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA

[carepov]

This is from your own link that you have posted, Rue. Read and learn:

On June 22, 1941 Joseph Weitz, a former director of settlement in the Jewish Agency, wrote in his diary: "Amongst ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country. No 'development' will bring us closer to our aim to be an independent people in this small country. After the Arabs are transferred, the country will be wide open for us; with the Arabs staying the country will remain narrow and restricted.... There is no room for compromise on this point....land purchasing....will not bring about the state;.... The only way is to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries, all of them, except perhaps Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Old Jerusalem. Not a single village or a single tribe must be left. And the transfer must be done through their absorption in Iraq and Syria and even in Transjordan. For that goal, money will be found - even a lot of money. And only then will the country be able to absorb millions of Jews.... There is no other solution." - (Weitz Diary, entry dated 20 December 1940, pp.1090-91, Central Zionist Archives, Jerusalem.)

"I made a summary of a list of the Arab villages, which in my opinion must be cleared out in order to complete Jewish regions. I also made a summary of the places that have land disputes and must be settled by military means." - (Weitz Diary, entry dated 18 April 1948, p. 2358, CZA)

Here is the leader of a Zionist terrorist group, who later became Israel's prime minister - Pay attention and learn:

"… we [the Haganah] adopt the system of aggressive defence; during the assault we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the [Arab] place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place." - (Ben-Gurion's advice on 19 December 1947. Cited in Simha Flapan

Hudson this is a thorough demolishment of the earlier claim about "peaceful zionst intellectuals".

However, Rue and Dog have make some good points about your selectivity. Do you agree that the Israelis are are no worse violators of human rights than other regional powers?

[DogOnPorch]

Hudson this is a thorough demolishment of the earlier claim about "peaceful zionst intellectuals".

However, Rue and Dog have make some good points about your selectivity. Do you agree that the Israelis are are no worse violators of human rights than other regional powers?

Bonam is correct that it was at least, initially, an intellectual concept...the whole dream of an Israel. The Jews didn't go in pre-WW1 guns-a-blazing. It was changes in the Ottoman Empire that allowed private ownership of land under condition of taxes and military service. Jews paid more taxes and were exempt from military service. Few Arabs "bought land" as it did mean serving in the Ottoman Army and paying taxes to the Sultan. Something most avoided...

[carepov]

Bonam is correct that it was at least, initially, an intellectual concept...the whole dream of an Israel...

Bonam said "always".