Insurance Companies putting a GPS in your Car

[Boges]

I'm sorry but you're daft if you agree to this.

http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2013/10/06/ontario_auto_insurers_eye_usage_plans_that_may_cut_rates.html

Car insurance companies are lining up at the door of Ontarios financial services regulator seeking approval to launch a new type of policy they say can cut the average annual cost of insuring a car by 15 per cent.

For GTA drivers, who pay the highest premiums in Canada, it is welcome news. If so-called usage based insurance is rolled out in a big way and you are willing to give up some privacy, you may be able to save a fair bit of money. If the Ontario government makes good on its promise of a two-step, 15 per cent cut in rates starting next year, the combined savings could be substantial.

Yeah because Insurance Companies always want to give you a cut to your rates. They wouldn't use your driving habits or the time of day that you drive against you to set your rate or anything.

Sure Dejardins says they can't use the information they obtain to raise your rate. But they have to get people to agree with it in the first place.

The dealer always gives you your first taste for free

I don't want insurance companies knowing everywhere I drive. What if I make a long road trip, do I have to tell them and obtain extra insurance because my insurance won't cover the pre approved, say 20,000 kms a year.

I really hope people don't adopt this technology. Slippery Slope People!

Edited October 7, 2013 by Boges

[GostHacked]

The slippery slope already happened, some are just catching up now.

The insurance industry is a scam and has a huge influence on policies and laws. Huge lobby group.

The caveat is always offered, give up your privacy and we will reduce your rates.

Let's look at a few other things. Recently the Canadian gov recounted it's proposed ban on incandescent bulbs for the energy efficient (but way more costly and toxic) coupled with forcing people on smart meters was to drastically reduce the electricity costs for people and their homes. Since they are more efficient, power company cannot make the money like they did, so .. up the rates went. Net benefit to customer? Nothing. These electronic devices like smart meters can be a problem for your privacy as well.

Let's look at cell phones. Your privacy is already compromised when using a smartphone. You realize all modern cell phones have GPS built in right? I know some THINK they can disable it, but it never gets disabled.

Again the slippery slope has happened. It's just now the slope is getting steeper and things are happening more quickly.

Anything that is given to us to save money can either compromise your privacy or your safety.

Big brother is much bigger than one understands.

[Boges]

I can't get too worked up over the Smart Meters and the Cell Phones. You get some benefit to utilizing these technologies. You can monitor your own hydro use with the Smart meters and having a cell with a built in GPS can be kind of cool. Google Now FTW!

The insurance thing is different. When you sign up for auto insurance, they ask you things like "How long is your commute?" "Where do you park every night?".

Now with these GPSs will be able ding you if you deviate from your initial agreement, even once. It's like with travel insurance, if you don't disclose a pre-existing condition they can deny a claim even if you're making a claim for a broken arm.

[GostHacked]

I can't get too worked up over the Smart Meters and the Cell Phones. You get some benefit to utilizing these technologies. You can monitor your own hydro use with the Smart meters and having a cell with a built in GPS can be kind of cool. Google Now FTW!

The insurance thing is different. When you sign up for auto insurance, they ask you things like "How long is your commute?" "Where do you park every night?".

Interesting. Talk about the slippery slope, but then ignore how slippery it already is.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-hydro-smart-meter-installs-violating-privacy-report-1.1016341

BC Hydro failed to notify customers who received new smart meters about how their personal information was being collected and used, B.C.'s privacy watchdog said Monday.

Elizabeth Denham, B.C.'s Information and Privacy Commissioner, released a report assessing the privacy and security of BC Hydro's smart meter program, stating the Crown corporation is not fully in compliance with the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.

"BC Hydro is required by law to tell their customers the purpose for collecting personal information for the smart meters project, what legal authority they have to do so and to provide contact information for a BC Hydro employee who can answer any questions that arise regarding collection," Denham said.

Not only that with being WIFI

The smart meters measure residents' power consumption by the hour, and then use wireless signals to relay that information back to BC Hydro.

BC Hydro has said the new technology will make the province's energy grid more efficient, sustainable and better able to respond to outages. BC Hydro also said energy consumption data, which would be transmitted wirelessly, would be encrypted and remain both secure and private.

These wifi smartmeters also require more power to operate than a typical analog meter that requires very little power to operate. Guess who is paying for the smartmete's electricity usage.

They have also caused fires in many cases. So a safety concern there as well.

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Ensuring+safety+after+smart+meter+installation+means+paying+Hydro/7061284/story.html

Homeowners concerned about safety after the installation of a smart meter would have to pay BC Hydro to unlock the device and hire a certified electrician to inspect it for potential electrical problems.

After at least two fires broke out in B.C. homes following the installation of smart meters, homeowners have been told it’s their responsibility to ensure the electrical wiring and base to support the meter is not faulty.

That last line is a simply a kick to the junk. So along with privacy issues there are other hazards with smart meters. But the way the information is gathered off smart meters is a concern. And if they catch fire, you as the homeowner are on the hook. Insurance won't pay out because of the faulty connection that the hydro company should have addressed when installing the smart meter.

Now with these GPSs will be able ding you if you deviate from your initial agreement, even once. It's like with travel insurance, if you don't disclose a pre-existing condition they can deny a claim even if you're making a claim for a broken arm.

Yes the insurance companies hold a lot of power and influence, this much I agree with you.

[bleeding heart]

The insurance thing is different. When you sign up for auto insurance, they ask you things like "How long is your commute?" "Where do you park every night?".

I dislike insurance companies as much as the next person, but these don't strike me as totally unreasonable questions.

the first is about how much time you will spend on the road--usually in heavy traffic; the second is about potential damage to your vehicle, isn't it?

I answered both honestly....and am paying a whopping 65$/mo.

Edited October 7, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Boges]

I've never paid a Hydro Bill without the use of a Smart Meter. The house I purchased has it installed when I moved in a few years ago. So I can't comment on a life without it.

I'm diligent about not using high cost devices like the AC or the Laundry, or even cooking dinner until off-peak hours. It seems to work for me.

As for the usual of the device transmitting. I have a modem, a wireless router and DVR hooked up 24/7 and don't think anything of the amount of power those devices use.

The big power drainage devices are someone's AC and the Laundry.

[Boges]

I dislike insurance companies as much as the next person, but these don't strike me as totally unreasonable questions.the first is about how much time you will spend on the road--usually in heavy traffic; the second is about potential damage to your vehicle, isn't it?I answered both honestly....and am paying a whopping 65$/mo.

So if you take a road trip or take the car out on the weekend, do you tell your insurance company about that?

What about if you spend the night somewhere other than your home. Like crashing at a friend inorder not to drive home drunk. Would you let your insurance company know about that?

These initial questions just allow the company to create a profile, that includes where you live, your age, your gender, and your driving record.

But if you have a tracking device, it's not a huge jump to think that eventually the companies will charge you for usage of the car, and charge you for every day you don't park in a garage or a driveway, or anytime you speed (regardless of the reason).

It's Big Brother to the max.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

The thing is, Boges, is that if people are lying about their mileage to the insurance companies, then they will end up embedding those costs in the rates we all pay - they won't be taking a cut in their profits. I tell the truth to my insurance companies because I know the risks of failing to do so. I would rather have my rate reflect my actual driving record, and not incorporate having to pay for those who lie about their mileage.

[GostHacked]

I've never paid a Hydro Bill without the use of a Smart Meter. The house I purchased has it installed when I moved in a few years ago. So I can't comment on a life without it.

I'm diligent about not using high cost devices like the AC or the Laundry, or even cooking dinner until off-peak hours. It seems to work for me.

To me this is a bit of social conditioning. Convincing you to only do things in off peak hours. Typically it's during they day when businesses need the power.

As an example I was home one time to visit and needed to wash a few things. My mom was saying wait till after 5, but I did not pack much and needed something clean. So I offered to pay the difference, because well, I needed it now.

They are trying to tell you how and when to drive your car through the GPS.

They are trying to tell you how and when to do your laundry through the smart meter.

As for the usual of the device transmitting. I have a modem, a wireless router and DVR hooked up 24/7 and don't think anything of the amount of power those devices use.

Another issue is some of your devices that are off, like big screen TVs are still using power. It's only a little, but if many of your devices use a little power, it can add up.

The big power drainage devices are someone's AC and the Laundry.

Desktop computers, home entertainment systems use a lot of power as well. More so than your AC or laundry because you are using them way more often. Any modern desktop with a 500w power supply or more sucks a lot of power.

Then there is the wifi and the built in cameras and mics in some of the new smart TVs ...

[Boges]

The thing is, Boges, is that if people are lying about their mileage to the insurance companies, then they will end up embedding those costs in the rates we all pay - they won't be taking a cut in their profits. I tell the truth to my insurance companies because I know the risks of failing to do so. I would rather have my rate reflect my actual driving record, and not incorporate having to pay for those who lie about their mileage.

They ask you what your commute is. That's a reliable way to gage your driving habits. You don't need to lie about that. What they don't ask you is how much you drive for social reasons.

If asked, I can't give an honest answer of my driving habits for personal and social reasons because I haven't the first clue where I'll be driving months from now. But if you have a GPS on your car then suddenly the Insurance companies can use your habits to increase your rate.

[Boges]

To me this is a bit of social conditioning. Convincing you to only do things in off peak hours. Typically it's during they day when businesses need the power.As an example I was home one time to visit and needed to wash a few things. My mom was saying wait till after 5, but I did not pack much and needed something clean. So I offered to pay the difference, because well, I needed it now.They are trying to tell you how and when to drive your car through the GPS.They are trying to tell you how and when to do your laundry through the smart meter.Another issue is some of your devices that are off, like big screen TVs are still using power. It's only a little, but if many of your devices use a little power, it can add up.Desktop computers, home entertainment systems use a lot of power as well. More so than your AC or laundry because you are using them way more often. Any modern desktop with a 500w power supply or more sucks a lot of power.Then there is the wifi and the built in cameras and mics in some of the new smart TVs ...

That's why my Desktop is unplugged unless I need it. With mobile technology I need to use an ACTUAL computer less and less. I was told by the Hydro company when I signed up that entertainment generally makes up 10% of your usage. Remember you also have a fridge hooked up 24/7. I can't get too worked up about LED clocks and electronic devices.

I once unplugged small kitchen appliances when they weren't being used until I realized it was more trouble that it's worth.

I'll admit I'm totally conditioned to using hydro at certain times. They got me young I suppose. Still it's different that someone tracking your driving habits.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Boges

[GostHacked]

If asked, I can't give an honest answer of my driving habits for personal and social reasons because I haven't the first clue where I'll be driving months from now. But if you have a GPS on your car then suddenly the Insurance companies can use your habits to increase your rate.

Good point. Along with the black box in the car to show HOW you drive as well WHERE you drive, will also be used against you.

[GostHacked]

That's why my Desktop is unplugged unless I need it. With mobile technology I need to use an ACTUAL computer less and less. I was told by the Hydro company when I signed up that entertainment generally makes up 10% of your usage. Remember you also have a fridge hooked up 24/7. I can't get too worked up about LED clocks and electronic device.

I once unplugged small kitchen appliances when they weren't being used until I realized it was more trouble that it's worth.

I'll admit I'm totally conditioned to using hydro at certain times. They got me young I suppose. Still it's different that someone tracking your driving habits.

My electricity is included in my rent, so I don't worry about that myself, but I do have all my PC gear connected to one power bar I shut off when I am not using it. Got into that habit some time ago when I was paying for electricity usage.

[cybercoma]

I'm sure the NSA doesn't want this data either.

[GostHacked]

I'm sure the NSA doesn't want this data either.

And that is a very good tie in. Some dots need connecting for the bigger picture to be understood. Many are still in a compartmentalized mode of thinking.

You think that C-130 bill could have applied to smart meters and other devices and not just cell phones/ internet connections? I am thinking so!

[cybercoma]

Kafka's The Trial. That's all I'm saying. We are all Josef.

[GostHacked]

I guess it's a matter now of guilty until proven innocent.

[guyser]

So if you take a road trip or take the car out on the weekend, do you tell your insurance company about that?

No, and there is absolutely no requirement to do so. And if you dont, there is no penalty for not doing so.

What about if you spend the night somewhere other than your home. Like crashing at a friend inorder not to drive home drunk. Would you let your insurance company know about that?

No and there is no requirement to do so. No penalty for not doing so either.

These initial questions just allow the company to create a profile, that includes where you live, your age, your gender, and your driving record.

True, they have to underwrite the risk.

But if you have a tracking device, it's not a huge jump to think that eventually the companies will charge you for usage of the car, and charge you for every day you don't park in a garage or a driveway, or anytime you speed (regardless of the reason).

It's Big Brother to the max.

It is little brother, I will give you that (and why I would nt do it)

But as for the parking elsewhere on occasion, or speeding....I have my doubts.

[bleeding heart]

So if you take a road trip or take the car out on the weekend, do you tell your insurance company about that?

What about if you spend the night somewhere other than your home. Like crashing at a friend inorder not to drive home drunk. Would you let your insurance company know about that?

Of course not. And it's perfectly understood that the guidelines aren't rock-solid for every moment you own a vehicle. They are rough, very rough, guidelines.

Even if one questions their usefulness or their validity, I still can't see anything too draconian about them.

But if you have a tracking device, it's not a huge jump to think that eventually the companies will charge you for usage of the car, and charge you for every day you don't park in a garage or a driveway, or anytime you speed (regardless of the reason).

It's Big Brother to the max.

Yes, if that were to happen, I'd agree with you.

[Michael Hardner]

If asked, I can't give an honest answer of my driving habits for personal and social reasons because I haven't the first clue where I'll be driving months from now. But if you have a GPS on your car then suddenly the Insurance companies can use your habits to increase your rate.

Presumably they would do this because of extra risks, and to reduce their costs.

[Boges]

Presumably they would do this because of extra risks, and to reduce their costs.

That's naive, it's to make money.

It's no different than a health insurance company denying a claim because you didn't disclose a medication you when you're trying to make a claim to pay for treating a broken arm while in the US.

For example, let's say I'm going away for a week and I'm going to leave my car at my parents place so they can drive me to the airport. Because for a time, my car isn't at the residence that the car is registered, should I be declined coverage, should I need it?

That's the pandora's box you open if you allow an insurance company to track you're every move.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Boges

[guyser]

.

It's no different than a health insurance company denying a claim because you didn't disclose a medication you when you're trying to make a claim to pay for treating a broken arm while in the US.

If using OHIP, no denial would occur. They would pay based on established rates here in Canada. If costing more, you are on the hook.

If using private travel insurance, you would be paid and not denied at all. A broken arm is not a pre existing condition.

For example, let's say I'm going away for a week and I'm going to leave my car at my parents place so they can drive me to the airport. Because for a time, my car isn't at the residence that the car is registered, should I be declined coverage, should I need it?

That's the pandora's box you open if you allow an insurance company to track you're every move.

You would not now nor in the future be denied cooverage.

Boges, not sure what or where you are going with this, but your examples are left lacking. Not one thing you have posted is a cause for denied claims.

[Boges]

If using OHIP, no denial would occur. They would pay based on established rates here in Canada. If costing more, you are on the hook.If using private travel insurance, you would be paid and not denied at all. A broken arm is not a pre existing condition. You would not now nor in the future be denied cooverage.Boges, not sure what or where you are going with this, but your examples are left lacking. Not one thing you have posted is a cause for denied claims.

The CBC did an entire episode of Marketplace about Canadians being denied health insurance claims because of loopholes.

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2012-1/tripped-up

What I'm getting at with this thread is that I don't buy that insurance companies want to put Tracking Devices on people's cars to "save them money". I think it's a trend where they want to be given any reason to up a premium or deny coverage.

[guyser]

The CBC did an entire episode of Marketplace about Canadians being denied health insurance claims because of loopholes.

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2012-1/tripped-up

I suspect I dont have to watch that video to know whats in it.

Its probably a case of "no no, I am healthy and never had any healthy problems (heart disease ,hi blood pressure,angina) and the person dies of a heart attack. I see it all the time.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

What I'm getting at with this thread is that I don't buy that insurance companies want to put Tracking Devices on people's cars to "save them money". I think it's a trend where they want to be given any reason to up a premium or deny coverage.

I happen to agree with you for the most part. There seems to never be a reduction for the use of these , only the reverse. I can assure you, no one on the brokers side is wanting these either.

[Michael Hardner]

That's naive, it's to make money.

Strange - I don't think cutting costs and making money are necessarily conflicting goals.

It's no different than a health insurance company denying a claim because you didn't disclose a medication you when you're trying to make a claim to pay for treating a broken arm while in the US.

Garbled sentence but ... sounds like they're also trying to eliminate false claims.

For example, let's say I'm going away for a week and I'm going to leave my car at my parents place so they can drive me to the airport. Because for a time, my car isn't at the residence that the car is registered, should I be declined coverage, should I need it?

Of course not.

That's the pandora's box you open if you allow an insurance company to track you're every move.

For a reduced rate, I'll give them the data. The problem with not doing that is that you're going to be effectively paying for everybody who is avoiding reporting because they're cheating.