BC_chick Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) So you don't really think he's suddenly a "she?" I know I don't. I certainly respect his right to go that route if so desired, but I don't think one should be able to go from serving as a male in the military to serving as a female in prison - when absolutely nothing has changed; and until things have changed, he's still a "he" regardless of what he feels like. Are you making judgments again? Edited August 25, 2013 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 True. A name change wouldn't be all that difficult. He/she sounds like a bit confused and troubled though. I'm sure he is troubled and confused. As I said, I'm fully behind his desire to change his identity/gender, but at this point he's still exactly the same male that served with other males in the military. I have to wonder where he expects he will be serving his sentence at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Are you making judgments again? Seems pretty logical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Dang, if I ever get sent to prison and all I have to do to get into a women's prison instead of a men's prison is utter the words "I'm a woman"... well, no brainer there. Given the choice of spending time looking at prison girls in cages or getting beaten up by big mean dudes, I can see why Manning has trouble identifying as a male. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Seems pretty logical to me. Everyone has a right to their opinion, it's an internet forum. I directed my post to AW for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Dang, if I ever get sent to prison and all I have to do to get into a women's prison instead of a men's prison is utter the words "I'm a woman"... well, no brainer there. Given the choice of spending time looking at prison girls in cages or getting beaten up by big mean dudes, I can see why Manning has trouble identifying as a male. Apparently that's not all one has to do. It seems he'll be serving his sentence at Fort Leavenworth Prison, an all male prison. Apparently "Manning would not be allowed to wear a wig or bra, and his hair would have to be kept to military standard." http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/manning-returns-fort-leavenworth-prison-kan-20040027 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 I have to commend you, Shady, for using the proper pronoun... His Y chromosomes say otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Gee, that's a tough one. Maybe because the people in the "proper channels" don't want to know about war crimes? That didn't answer the question at all. If he was revealing war crmes, why not release the documents proving war crimes, rather than tens of thousands of files on all manner of subjects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Dang, if I ever get sent to prison and all I have to do to get into a women's prison instead of a men's prison is utter the words "I'm a woman"... well, no brainer there. Given the choice of spending time looking at prison girls in cages or getting beaten up by big mean dudes, I can see why Manning has trouble identifying as a male. And undergo hormone replacement therapy the entire time you're there? You'd be down for that, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 His Y chromosomes say otherwise. Gender is socially constructed, while biological sex isn't. We refer to people by their gender expressions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Gender is socially constructed, while biological sex isn't. "Gender" and "sex" are synonyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) "Gender" and "sex" are synonyms. No they're not. I hope I can assume that you'll accept the World Health Organization as a credible reference on the matter. http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/ Edited August 25, 2013 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) No they're not. Yes, they most certainly are. [ed.: +] Gender - thesaurus entry sexnoun males or females considered as separate groups sexnoun the group of features or qualities that make a person, animal, or plant either male or female MacMillan Dictionary gen·der noun \ˈjen-dər\ 2 a : sex <the feminine gender> Merriam-Webster Dictionary Edited August 25, 2013 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I gave you the link to the World Health Organization's description and I have explained it numerous times on the forum. You can continue to choose to ignore it, but as long as you do, you are wrong. Both social scientists and medical professionals accept that sex and gender are different things, no matter how much you want to deny it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) Gender is socially constructed, while biological sex isn't. We refer to people by their gender expressions. No, we refer to them by their biological sex. If some man is a bit less manly and more feminine than others, we don't refer to him as "she". Edited August 26, 2013 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 And undergo hormone replacement therapy the entire time you're there? You'd be down for that, eh? Where in the law does it say that one must undergo a specific therapy if one simply identifies as a member of a particular sex? Certainly it seems to me that if the law states that a transgender person is forced to undergo an unwanted medical procedure to have their gender status recognized, you would see that as an unjust law, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I gave you the link to the World Health Organization's description and I have explained it numerous times on the forum. You can continue to choose to ignore it, but as long as you do, you are wrong. Both social scientists and medical professionals accept that sex and gender are different things, no matter how much you want to deny it. And Bambino showed you the dictionary definition that showed with absolute clarity that the WHO is using the terminology incorrectly. You can explain it as many times as you like, you will still be wrong about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) The dictionary definition is wrong, Bryan. Which is hardly surprising since it's from Merriam. And a linguistic reference for people learning a language is no substitute for the academic study of sex and gender. You can deny it all you want, but psychologists, social scientists, and the WHO accept that sex and gender are different things and have done so for nearly 20 years now. Bonam, people should be addressed in the manner they choose. If a feminine man wants to be "she" that's her choice. If he wants to be "he" same deal. I get that this is difficult for many of you to accept, but this is generally accepted stuff amongst those that study social relationships and psychology and its becoming the norm in medicine too (hence the WHO site). Edited August 26, 2013 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 The dictionary definition is wrong, Bryan. Which is hardly surprising since it's from Merriam. And a linguistic reference for people learning a language is no substitute for the academic study of sex and gender. The dictionary is wrong, that's rich. Typical left-wing behaviour: you can't understand reality, so you make up your own. people should be addressed in the manner they choose. If a feminine man wants to be "she" that's her choice. If he wants to be "he" same deal. No. People should be addressed based on the fact of who they are. You can choose to be called Mr. Prime Minister, that doesn't make it so. If you actually believe it, you have a mental illness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 IF only you people argued over the semantics of something like the NDAA or Patriot Act, progress and understanding might actually be attainable. The gender and the gossip going along with it, belongs on the front page of National Enquirer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) I gave you the link to the World Health Organization's description... You can continue to choose to ignore it... Who, other than you, is ignoring anything? All I said was "sex" and "gender" are synonyms, and they are, even if you don't want to believe it. The psychiatric profession evidently assigns only one of the words' shared definitions to each so that each means something different to the other; they cease to be synonyms in that context as a matter of convenience. That doesn't make dictionaries wrong or me wrong when I say Bradley Manning is a "he". Biologically, Manning is of the male gender and always will be. In English, the male third person pronoun is "he". [ed.: c/e] Edited August 26, 2013 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 There's even a reasonably well-researched Wiki on the topic, if you feel like educating yourselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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