TTC Police Shooting

[Boges]

Precedent.

cite?

I didn't say all the public, just most........As to satisfaction, I think most of the public dont really give a shit and when the police departments side, maybe even the Streetcar CCTV footage (If any?) is released in a few months, most will have forgotten the issue..

Perhaps but if a ruling comes out saying that says shooting someone 9 times when he's alone on a bus is cool, I'd reckon public outrage will grow again.

And when he's cleared, are you good with that?

Sure as long as you eat crow if he's charged. Edited August 13, 2013 by Boges

[Guest Derek L]

cite?

Pick the3 last five police uses of lethal force within Toronto………I sure if video tapped, they too would appear bad……funny that, I’ve never seen an instance when a person gets killed as looking good.

Perhaps but if a ruling comes out saying that says shooting someone 9 times when he's alone on a bus is cool, I'd reckon public outrage will grow again.

Perhaps if such a ruling came down next week.......next month, most will have forgot.

Sure as long as you eat crow if he's charged.

Charged or convicted? Big difference......

[Rue]

So you keep saying - so I'll keep pointing out that until the investigation is completed, we don't know all that happened. Or why. Again. A sergeant used a taser after the shots were fired. I'd like to know why.

You speak of Derek and me not being "experts," even though my stance has consistently been that we can't make a judgement without all of the information, so I'll point out to you that you are no expert and are in no position to make such a judgement call.

I again am with American Woman on this. I have serious questions too and I think none of us know the answers and must wait. For me the use of the taser after he appears to be on the ground convulsing appears questionable. The gap between the first 3 and second 6 shots need to be questioned.

The training needs to be questioned. The officer himself may or may not have violated procedures I do not know. If it proves he did everything he was told, then we still need to question the training and methods used for such people.

My personal opinion at this point is the officer did nothing wrong, but his training is surely bring attention to the fact that there must be better ways to handle such situations. Surely there are better ways to deal with a deranged person than simply yelling at them to drop the knife and leaving sirens blaring in the back round while that is done.

I am looking at this as the police officer on an indiidual level may not have done anything wrong but the training he and all officers received is

clearly problematic. More then that we have to wait and see.

I think making assumptions about what tactics should have been used and when should be left up to the professionals.

I can understand why people are mad, distrustful of the police and feel they can look at a video and second guess. I get that. All I am saying is

there are a hell of a lot of behaviour sequences from the initial to final encounter with this person that need to be broken down and analyzed.

Like American Woman I am saying the real crux of the problem is probably not the officer, but the training he received.

I do not see how demonizing this officer on an individual level is anything but scapegoating and as I said to Blackdog in one sense he as being victimized or being scapegoated for what may be improper training. That is not logical and won't prevent future deaths from learning what went wrong.

As well for me the attempts to resurrect Samy Yatim as a sweet angel saint is as illogical as demonizing the officer as a brutal demon.

These black and white, good v. evil, simplistic concepts are pointless. They do not deal with the root issues. They simply provide a vehicle for people with anti police agendas to use this shooting to advance their agenda.

If people are genuinely concerned about the plight of the mentally ill, then encourage calm dialogue which helps us learn from this incident not walk away from it screaming for a lynching.

[Guest American Woman]

I have to wonder how many people who have condemned this officer, made personal judgements about him without knowing him from Adam, would want to be so judged themselves on so little information. One of the great things about out nations is that people have the right of due process. Verdicts are not made on something so sketchy as a YouTube video showing just part of an incident from one viewpoint, or from what the media has to say/focuses on. The officer in question has not been able to say one word himself, and the police are not speaking out about it due to the investigation. Yet people claim they know all they need to know. The lynch mob mentality that is so apparent from too many goes against everything our countries stand for.

[GostHacked]

Some of those calling on others to hold back their personal judgment on the cop, have had no problem with putting forth their personal judgment on the dead kid.

Edited August 16, 2013 by GostHacked

[Guest American Woman]

Some of those calling on others to hold back their personal judgment on the cop, have had no problem with putting forth their personal judgment on the dead kid.

What kind of judgments?

[guyser]

What kind of judgments?

Mental, kook , motives for what he did. that sort of thing. Proclaiming this Cop will be completly exhonerated.

Its bad for those who judge the cop, ok dokey for those who want to castigate the kid .

[Guest American Woman]

Mental, kook , motives for what he did. that sort of thing. Proclaiming this Cop will be completly exhonerated.

Its bad for those who judge the cop, ok dokey for those who want to castigate the kid .

I've seen people who are condemning the cop saying Yatim had emotional issues, and I've seen some people repeat what was in the media about him not holding a job, drinking and using drugs, being kicked out of his father's house, collecting knives, etc., but I haven't seen anyone give motives for what he did. Evidently I missed it if they have, and unless it's been reported, I agree it's wrong to judge Yatim, too. So do you feel it's wrong? Or do you think it's as okey dokey to judge him as it is to judge the cop?

[guyser]

So do you feel it's wrong? Or do you think it's as okey dokey to judge him as it is to judge the cop?

We are fine to do as we please.

We are no judge nor jury so we can posit all we want.

But its funny to see some castigate only half the partcipants.

[Black Dog]

I have to wonder how many people who have condemned this officer, made personal judgements about him without knowing him from Adam, would want to be so judged themselves on so little information.

If I killed someone, I'd expect people to make lots of judgements about me.

One of the great things about out nations is that people have the right of due process. Verdicts are not made on something so sketchy as a YouTube video showing just part of an incident from one viewpoint, or from what the media has to say/focuses on. The officer in question has not been able to say one word himself, and the police are not speaking out about it due to the investigation. Yet people claim they know all they need to know. The lynch mob mentality that is so apparent from too many goes against everything our countries stand for.

This is silly. No one has called for due process to be ignored. But sorry to tell you, but we are allowed to have personal opinions on the matter.

[Black Dog]

Breaking now: the cop has been charged with second degree murder.

[Boges]

Breaking now: the cop has been charged with second degree murder.

I wonder how apologists for him are going to spin this. It's not a conviction but second degree is a pretty severe charge. I was thinking about manslaughter.

Maybe they're just aiming high. :-D

I can't see the SIU going forward with charges without more than enough evidence to convict though.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I wonder how apologists for him are going to spin this. It's not a conviction but second degree is a pretty severe charge. I was thinking about manslaughter.

Maybe they're just aiming high. :-D

I can't see the SIU going forward with charges without more than enough evidence to convict though.

Interesting article here on the frequency of charges by the SIU against Toronto cops. Short version: it's very rare.

[eyeball]

Breaking now: the cop has been charged with second degree murder.

I'm still wondering when all the cops standing around the perp are going to suspended for doing nothing to stop a crime in progress.

[guyser]

..."this Cop will be completly exhonerated"

So much for this whoever wrote it.

He may not be convicted but the charge is a great start.

[Boges]

I'm still wondering when all the cops standing around the perp are going to suspended for doing nothing to stop a crime in progress.

Baby steps, get the murderer first.

These charges would never have been laid had someone not been taping the shooting. The cops would have gotten their story straight and the SIU wouldn't have been able to properly investigate it.

[cybercoma]

I wonder how apologists for him are going to spin this. It's not a conviction but second degree is a pretty severe charge. I was thinking about manslaughter.

Maybe they're just aiming high. :-D

I can't see the SIU going forward with charges without more than enough evidence to convict though.

I just saw this in my newsfeed and was actually surprised by how steep the charge is.

[Guest Derek L]

Interesting article here on the frequency of charges by the SIU against Toronto cops. Short version: it's very rare.

And from it:

The only murder charge laid in the past six years has been against Toronto Emergency Task Force officer David Cavanagh, who faced a second-degree murder charge after his gun discharged and he killed a man during a raid on an Etobicoke apartment in 2010.

However, a judge threw out a second-degree murder charge against Cavanagh after a preliminary hearing earlier this year. The Crown, however, appealed and a decision is pending.

So, my question, will the torch and pitchfork crowd be quelled on this mater if the Judge bins the 2nd degree charge in this case?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Derek L

[eyeball]

It'll probably just confirm their sense that the relationship between the governed and their governments are getting quite seriously fubar.

Will sycophants to the gloriously awesome power of the state and all its minions be happy?

[Black Dog]

And from it:

So, my question, will the torch and pitchfork crowd be quelled on this mater if the Judge bins the 2nd degree charge in this case?

The devil, as always, is in the details.

University of Windsor law professor David Tanovich says Yatim’s shooting is a “watershed case” involving police.

...

Tavonich says the case differs from another recent police shooting by Emergency Task Force (ETF) officer David Cavanagh because that case involves a question of whether the officer intentionally discharged his firearm, killing an Etobicoke man inside his apartment during a 2010 raid.

Tanovich said even in that case Scott felt there was sufficient evidence to charge with second-degree murder, saying the decision to charge Forcillo was an easy one.

Link

[Boges]

If the officer gets off or is convicted, I would hope the evidence that were currently aren't privy to will be made public.

Though the Zimmerman verdict outraged many, people were more outraged at the law that got him off and not the fact that the jury got it wrong.

[Guest Derek L]

The devil, as always, is in the details.

Link

Your link doesn't appear to work.........

Anyways, one could surmise that in the previous case involving 2nd degree murder, the Crown was perhaps overzealous in the laying of charges……..akin to the Zimmerman charges one could suggest………ultimately the Crown/State of Florida rushed towards charges, but ultimately failed……Could this be a case of another populist which hunt ?

I find it ironic that the presumption of innocence in media stirred events is the first to be thrown out……..sycophants indeed.

[Black Dog]

Your link doesn't appear to work.........

Anyways, one could surmise that in the previous case involving 2nd degree murder, the Crown was perhaps overzealous in the laying of charges……..akin to the Zimmerman charges one could suggest………ultimately the Crown/State of Florida rushed towards charges, but ultimately failed……

The quote provided was enough. The other case turned on a question of intent. There's no such question here (the six bonus bullets kinda removes that possibility).

Could this be a case of another populist which hunt ?

Or maybe, just maybe the cop in question was wrong.

I find it ironic that the presumption of innocence in media stirred events is the first to be thrown out……..sycophants indeed.

Why is that ironic?

[Guest Derek L]

The quote provided was enough. The other case turned on a question of intent. There's no such question here (the six bonus bullets kinda removes that possibility).

Still would have liked to read the entire story....none the less.

Or maybe, just maybe the cop in question was wrong.

And maybe, just maybe the Crown will be able to demonstrate the Mens Rea......this ought to be good.

Why is that ironic?

Those calling for “Justice for Sammy”, neglect a cornerstone of our legal system.

[Boges]

Anyways, one could surmise that in the previous case involving 2nd degree murder, the Crown was perhaps overzealous in the laying of charges..akin to the Zimmerman charges one could suggestultimately the Crown/State of Florida rushed towards charges, but ultimately failedCould this be a case of another populist which hunt ?

But you have no evidence to prove that this was an example of the SIU pleasing the rabbit masses do you?

I find it ironic that the presumption of innocence in media stirred events is the first to be thrown out..sycophants indeed.

Perhaps if you listen to talk radio or listen to columnists but that's their jobs. But do you have evidence of reporting that is biased against the officers.