Woman jailed for reporting rape in Dubai

[The_Squid]

AW, you seem to have issues separating a dictatorship government and its laws from the citizens within that country. The government of UAE is not the same as the citizens...

Isn't that what you have claimed many posters do on this forum... and admonished them for it?

[carepov]

So you think those who benefit from the laws do so under duress? The majority of men get such privileges - as it's the law. The law gives them the advantage in the situations I cited.

No, it is my opinion that the majority of men do not bennefit from the laws, and therefore have no advantage with the backwards laws. Most men would change the laws if they could.

Violence of women is the most widespread abuse of human rights and it is not isolated to any one culture. The primary vicitms are of course women but they are not the only victims, all people suffer, especially children (boys and girls) and other relatives of the victims (men and women). My opinion is that most people, including most men are like us, they are looking out for the needs of their family and have no desire to hurt anyone.

[carepov]

I'm sure there are some moderate elements within UAE society. I'm equally sure they are enormously outweighed by the more tradition minded who see the laws expounded in the Koran as the word of God and who wish to live their lives by it. You won't find a majority in many Muslim countries willing to go against the laws of the Koran. Regardless of how brutal or barbaric those laws are. Many Arab countries still have laws on the books which say that if a rapist is willing to marry his victim there won't be any punishment. Egypt had such a law until recently, but it hardly matters as Rape, while not legal in Egypt, might as well be.

If only the most radical Muslim countries could model themselves after Turkey and perhaps Malaysia and Indonesia...

[Guest American Woman]

Society in general didn't pick this government or vote and "rights" afforded to men and not women. And those that try to change the government/fundamentalist Muslim control are promptly put in their place with the use of force.

And you clearly didn't understand my question...

How many men treat women as second class citizens there? All of them? The vast majority? How many?

Any of them who benefit by the laws; any of the men who fall into the categories where women are treated as second class citizens. I provided a cite stating the circumstances where men are privileged by law.

[Guest American Woman]

No, it is my opinion that the majority of men do not bennefit from the laws, and therefore have no advantage with the backwards laws. Most men would change the laws if they could.

It may be your opinion that the majority of men do not benefit from the laws, but the laws themselves say otherwise.

Violence of women is the most widespread abuse of human rights and it is not isolated to any one culture. The primary vicitms are of course women but they are not the only victims, all people suffer, especially children (boys and girls) and other relatives of the victims (men and women). My opinion is that most people, including most men are like us, they are looking out for the needs of their family and have no desire to hurt anyone.

I'm not speaking just of violence by any means; I never claimed that most men beat their wives, and I don't believe that's true, but I cited a source that tells how women are treated as second class citizens and I doubt the men are abiding by the laws under duress.

I'm a woman, with daughters, and I can't imagine living in such a society. You can say that all societies do this that or the other thing, but it's the laws and legal rights that matter. I think it's so wrong not to recognize and appreciate what our societies offer us. It's a touchy subject with me as a woman and mother of daughters, and it's not an issue that I think should be downplayed.

[cybercoma]

The majority of men do not enjoy any such priviliges. They see their mothers, sisters and daughters suffereing and are powerless to stop it.

I know you don't mean it this way, but someone brought my attention to the notion that when women are referred to as mothers, sisters, and daughters, it identifies them as their relationships to the men, as opposed to people deserving of respect in their own right. Rarely does anyone ever refer to men as fathers, brothers, and sons when talking about issues that victimize them. Obviously this isn't your intent or anyone else's intent, but that's the ideology behind making this kind of colloquial statement.

Edited July 23, 2013 by cybercoma

[jbg]

People travel to Dubai and other UAE states believing their gleaming towers and reputation for 'modern' attitudes mean they're something like the West. But all it seems to show is there are no moderate Muslim states.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

While there are still problems, overall I believe that the Arab world has made significant progress towards alleviating many of its inequities and backwardness. For example. I have previously so posted (titles contain links to threads):

Progress in Penal Methods - Equal and Public Punishments; and Saudi's Making Progress on Women's Rights

August 16, 2010

In Bold Display, Taliban Order Stoning Deaths (link)

By ROD NORDLAND

KABUL, Afghanistan — The Taliban on Sunday ordered their first public executions by stoning since their fall from power nine years ago, killing a young couple who had eloped, according to Afghan officials and a witness.

The punishment was carried out by hundreds of the victims’ neighbors in a village in northern Kunduz Province, according to Nadir Khan, 40, a local farmer and Taliban sympathizer, who was interviewed by telephone. Even family members were involved, both in the stoning and in tricking the couple into returning after they had fled.

I know my view is not popular but they are making progress. The signs of progress are more apparent in Saudi Arabia (link) where the King cancelled a scheduled brutal punishment:

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah on Wednesday overturned a court's sentence of 10 lashes for a woman arrested for driving in the kingdom.

The monarch's decision overturns a court ruling Tuesday against Shaima Jastaina, who was arrested for driving a relative to the hospital, the Associated Press reported.

"Thank God, the lashing of Shaima is cancelled," Princess Ameera Al-Taweel, wife of King Abdullah's nephew Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal, posted to Twitter Wednesday. "Thanks to our beloved King. I'm sure all Saudi women will be so happy, I know I am."

Nothing is perfect. Progress is under way.

[carepov]

It may be your opinion that the majority of men do not benefit from the laws, but the laws themselves say otherwise.

I'm not speaking just of violence by any means; I never claimed that most men beat their wives, and I don't believe that's true, but I cited a source that tells how women are treated as second class citizens and I doubt the men are abiding by the laws under duress.

I'm a woman, with daughters, and I can't imagine living in such a society. You can say that all societies do this that or the other thing, but it's the laws and legal rights that matter. I think it's so wrong not to recognize and appreciate what our societies offer us. It's a touchy subject with me as a woman and mother of daughters, and it's not an issue that I think should be downplayed.

The thing is, most people, including men, have absolutely no say is establishing the laws and if you stand up against the government you're f...ed as per the source that I cited. There is no point is saying "men benefit from the laws" (which I disagree with anyways) when they have no power to change the laws.

IMO, women's rights world-wide is one of the most important issues, if not the most important issue that needs improvement.

[Scotty]

If only the most radical Muslim countries could model themselves after Turkey and perhaps Malaysia and Indonesia...

All three are getting more restrictive and conservatively Muslim by the year.

[carepov]

All three [Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia] are getting more restrictive and conservatively Muslim by the year.

On what basis do you make that claim?

[jbg]

On what basis do you make that claim?

Certainly Turkey is. And I don't hear much good happening in Malaysia.

[carepov]

Certainly Turkey is [getting more restrictive and conservatively Muslim]. And I don't hear much good happening in Malaysia.

I'm curious, what makes you say that about Turkey?

Regarding Malaysia, typically no news is good news, no?

[jbg]

I'm curious, what makes you say that about Turkey?

Regarding Malaysia, typically no news is good news, no?

With regard to Turkey, there has been legislation concerning public displays of affection, restrictions on drinking etc. Erdogan is a committed Islamist who is moving slowly since much of his country is Western-oriented.

[GostHacked]

With regard to Turkey, there has been legislation concerning public displays of affection, restrictions on drinking etc. Erdogan is a committed Islamist who is moving slowly since much of his country is Western-oriented.

Quite right. He is bringing Turkey down a dangerous road.

[Guest American Woman]

The thing is, most people, including men, have absolutely no say is establishing the laws and if you stand up against the government you're f...ed as per the source that I cited. There is no point is saying "men benefit from the laws" (which I disagree with anyways) when they have no power to change the laws.

Whether they have the power to make the laws or change the laws, if the laws benefit men - then men benefit. I don't understand your reasoning at all. Of course in a country where women are treated as second class citizens in areas such as divorce, inheritance, and child custody - the men benefit. How you can argue otherwise is baffling to me.

IMO, women's rights world-wide is one of the most important issues, if not the most important issue that needs improvement.

I couldn't agree more, and as a woman and mother of daughters living in the U.S. who has not been treated as a second class citizen, I feel so strongly about this issue. It cannot be downplayed, excused in any way, or dismissed for whatever reasons. It needs to change, and until it does, it is very much a part of their culture.

[Bonam]

Whether they have the power to make the laws or change the laws, if the laws benefit men - then men benefit. I don't understand your reasoning at all. Of course in a country where women are treated as second class citizens in areas such as divorce, inheritance, and child custody - the men benefit. How you can argue otherwise is baffling to me.

Because a society that has gender equality is better for both men and women. Gender equality contributes to improved economic and social development. Additionally, at least when you talk to men around here, I doubt many would consider women being second class citizens a benefit... most Western men prefer interesting, dynamic, independent, women, not submissive beaten down oppressed ones. The thing to realize is society isn't a war between men and women, where if you make discriminatory laws against one gender it somehow benefits the other. Men and women tend to pair up and work together, and the more justly both are treated, the better it is for everyone and for society as a whole.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Bonam

[bleeding heart]

Because a society that has gender equality is better for both men and women. Gender equality contributes to improved economic and social development. Additionally, at least when you talk to men around here, I doubt many would consider women being second class citizens a benefit... most Western men prefer interesting, dynamic, independent, women, not submissive beaten down oppressed ones. The thing to realize is society isn't a war between men and women, where if you make discriminatory laws against one gender it somehow benefits the other. Men and women tend to pair up and work together, and the more justly both are treated, the better it is for everyone and for society as a whole.

I agree completely.

I do take American Woman's point. Discriminatory gender laws are designed to benefit men at the expense of women.

However, extrapolating from a point you made, most men are not going to benefit at the expense of women, and many don't wish to do so.

[Guest American Woman]

However, extrapolating from a point you made, most men are not going to benefit at the expense of women, and many don't wish to do so.

Any man in the situations I've referred to benefits - whether he wishes to or not. It's ludicrous to suggest that men don't benefit in a society whose laws favor men.

Edited July 27, 2013 by American Woman

[bleeding heart]

Any man in the situations I've referred to benefits - whether he wishes to or not. It's ludicrous to suggest that men don't benefit in a society whose laws favor men.

Hmmmmmm:

where women are treated as second class citizens in areas such as divorce, inheritance, and child custody - the men benefit

Yeah, it looks like you're right.

[Bonam]

I agree completely.

I do take American Woman's point. Discriminatory gender laws are designed to benefit men at the expense of women.

Does a man benefit when he can't marry the woman he loves because she is her father's property and the father won't grant permission? Does a man benefit when his daughter is raped and the perpetrator cannot be brought to justice? Does a man benefit when the financial well-being of his household rests on him alone, and his wife cannot work and contribute? Discriminatory laws benefit no one.

Discriminatory gender laws are designed to uphold the status quo and to conform to idiotic religious ideas, that's all.

Any man in the situations I've referred to benefits - whether he wishes to or not. It's ludicrous to suggest that men don't benefit in a society whose laws favor men.

AW: Consider a counterexample. Let's say you could live in a society where all men are slaves, they live in cages from birth until when a woman comes around and decides to pick one as her property (husband), to do menial labor and to serve as her sex toy and breeding stock, if she desires. Due to the condition they are kept in, these men are weak, stupid, uneducated, cannot speak or read in a human language because they have never been taught it. At any time, the woman can do anything she wants with her male property, including getting rid of it by any means she chooses. The laws obviously can't "favor" women any more than that. Would you as a woman think you would "benefit" from living in such a society, as compared to one where gender laws are equal?

Edited July 27, 2013 by Bonam

[Guest American Woman]

First of all, I specified where the laws favor men. There are no laws that favor women, so while men may not be favored in very instance, I never claimed they were. However, since they are favored in specific instances, whereas women never are, men do benefit as stated.

Does a man benefit when he can't marry the woman he loves because she is her father's property and the father won't grant permission?

No, a man wanting to marry her doesn't benefit, and neither does the woman if it's her desire to marry said man. However, the father - a man - whose property she is, and who doesn't want to grant permission, does benefit.

Does a man benefit when his daughter is raped and the perpetrator cannot be brought to justice?

No, and neither does her mother - as the woman who was raped certainly is affected the most. The man who raped her, however, does benefit.

Does a man benefit when the financial well-being of his household rests on him alone, and his wife cannot work and contribute?

While his wife is at home sitting on a couch eating bon bons? Not all women are married. But one could argue that keeping women out of the job force benefits men as there is less competition for jobs. At any rate, it's a wash at best. It's certainly not a benefit for women who are dependent on the man for money.

Discriminatory laws benefit no one.

They absolutely do benefit those who the laws favor in said instances.

Discriminatory gender laws are designed to uphold the status quo and to conform to idiotic religious ideas, that's all.

And they discriminate and hurt women in the process. It's why Human Rights Watch is so critical of such laws.

AW: Consider a counterexample. Let's say you could live in a society where all men are slaves, they live in cages from birth until when a woman comes around and decides to pick one as her property (husband), to do menial labor and to serve as her sex toy and breeding stock, if she desires. Due to the condition they are kept in, these men are weak, stupid, uneducated, cannot speak or read in a human language because they have never been taught it. At any time, the woman can do anything she wants with her male property, including getting rid of it by any means she chooses. The laws obviously can't "favor" women any more than that. Would you as a woman think you would "benefit" from living in such a society, as compared to one where gender laws are equal?

That's not a relevant scenario.

Again, according to Human Rights Watch:

The law in particular discriminates against women by granting men privileged status in matters of divorce, inheritance, and child custody. Emirati women can obtain a divorce through khul’a (a no-fault divorce) thereby losing their financial rights. They may only ask for a divorce in exceptional circumstances. Females can only inherit one-third of assets while men are entitled to inherit two-thirds.

The law further discriminates against women by permitting Emirati men, but not women, to have as many as four polygamous marriages and forbidding Muslim women, but not men, from marrying non-Muslims. Emirati women married to non-citizens do not automatically pass citizenship to their children, a right enjoyed by Emirati men married to foreign spouses.

Despite the existence of shelters and hotlines to help protect women, domestic violence remains a pervasive problem.The penal code gives men the legal right to discipline their wives and children, including through the use of physical violence.The Federal Supreme Court has upheld a husband’s right to “chastise” his wife and children with physical abuse.

Edited July 27, 2013 by American Woman

[Hudson Jones]

Again, according to Human Rights Watch:

Hello Selective.

Just a reminder for the next time you throw your arms up when HRW makes a comment about Israel or U.S.

[carepov]

Whether they have the power to make the laws or change the laws, if the laws benefit men - then men benefit. I don't understand your reasoning at all. Of course in a country where women are treated as second class citizens in areas such as divorce, inheritance, and child custody - the men benefit. How you can argue otherwise is baffling to me.

OK, some individual men benefit from misogynistic laws.

All women suffer from these laws. All children suffer. All of society suffers. Most men suffer.

Edited July 29, 2013 by carepov

[GostHacked]

OK, some individual men benefit from misogynistic laws.

All women suffer from these laws. All children suffer. All of society suffers. Most men suffer.

And if we deal with child custody, in the majority of cases, the men suffer as do the kids if the courts decide the woman is the better parent when clearly she is not. I don't know how often this happens.

[Guest American Woman]

OK, some individual men benefit from misogynistic laws.

All women suffer from these laws. All children suffer. All of society suffers. Most men suffer.

A lot of men benefit. In such societies, I would much rather be in the position men are in than the position women are in. It's worse for the one who is treated as a second class citizen, the one who the laws discriminates against. Edited July 29, 2013 by American Woman