RCMP Seized High River Firearms From Homes - break and enter

[scribblet]

I'm wondering under what law the RCMP can break into people's homes and seize firearms without warrants etc. I'm not clear if they broke into every house looking for firearms, or if they knew which houses had them. If they knew then how did they get access to that information as the gun registry is now defunct.

Were all of these seized firearms just sitting around the house unsecured, or did they also break into the required secured lock boxes. If they did, that would take some doing as the storage container has to be hard to break into.

The town was cordoned off so no one would be getting in and stealing them so this seems big over the top to me.

http://firearmslaw.ca/gun-law-resources/firearms-storage-transportation/

http://www.canada.com/news/alberta/RCMP+seized+High+River+firearms+from+homes+control/8588851/story.html

HIGH RIVER — RCMP revealed Thursday that officers have seized a “substantial amount” of firearms from homes in the evacuated town of High River.

“We just want to make sure that all of those things are in a spot that we control, simply because of what they are,” said Sgt. Brian Topham.

“People have a significant amount of money invested in firearms ... so we put them in a place that we control and that they’re safe.”

That news didn’t sit well with a crowd of frustrated residents who had planned to breach a police checkpoint northwest of the town as an evacuation order stretched into its eighth day.

“I find that absolutely incredible that they have the right to go into a person’s belongings out of their home,” said resident Brenda Lackey, after learning Mounties have been taking residents’ guns. “When people find out about this there’s going to be untold hell to pay.”

Edited June 28, 2013 by scribblet

[GostHacked]

Was martial law ever delcared in those areas? I believe legally that is the only way the RCMP could confiscate the firearms. But in my view the RCMP should have been working with the people to remove the firearms to another location.

[Topaz]

I don't care for guns but when the police go into your home to see if anyone is there and take personal property out such as guns, I like to know why? The article did say the homeowner could have them back as soon as they showed proof of ownership. I guess its a sneaky way of finding illegal guns and in Alberta of all places. They should write their MP!!

[cybercoma]

What's even more concerning is that people have to provide proof that the guns are theirs for them to be returned. Think about that for a second. Their homes were all but destroyed in the floods and they have to somehow prove the guns are theirs to get them back. Substitute "guns" for any other legal-to-own item. At first glance this is a step too far by the RCMP. However, things aren't that simple. I can appreciate that they're worried about looting and the kind of things that went down in New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina. They may even be concerned about looters stealing people's firearms. The RCMP may feel as though they're doing the right thing protecting gun owners from losing their firearms to thieves and the black market. But we have to ask ourselves if the ends justify the means. And that's something that I need to reflect on further because I just don't know.

[scribblet]

I don't think martial law was ever declared plus if they had the area cordoned off looters couldn't get in either. Actually, they may have been able to do it under C-68 as it was only the gun registry itself that was done away with. Another reason the Tories should've canned the whole bill.

It bothers me that they could actually break and enter, then somehow get the firearms which are supposed to be in a hard to open lock box. Where these guns just sitting by the door or what, and if not, how did they open the gun safes.

Edited June 28, 2013 by scribblet

[The_Squid]

If the RCMP are in the home legally to check for residents and they saw guns that were not safely stored, then they would most likely be allowed to take them.

If they took firearms that were safely stored or if it was not lawful for the RCMP to be there in the first place, then the seizures would seem to be improper and I would be irate if this happened to me!

Edited June 28, 2013 by The_Squid

[cybercoma]

Lots of ifs. I'd like to know more about what happened too.

[GostHacked]

Harper done some good for once.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/06/28/pol-pmo-guns-alberta.html

Telling the RCMP to give the firearms back to the people pronto.

[The_Squid]

It sounds as if these guns were not stored safely. These guns should certainly be seized by the RCMP.

"In those situations, when they were out in plain view and they were not properly secured and stored, those firearms were taken by the RCMP member and safely secured in the High River detachment."

---------------------------

"The RCMP were not searching houses looking for firearms. The RCMP were going into homes looking for victims. If while we were in that home looking for victims there was an unsecured firearm that was out in the open, we had to take that firearm to make sure it was safe."

. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/06/28/pol-pmo-guns-alberta.html

And of course the PMO has reacted in a knee jerk fashion demanding the RCMP return the guns, despite the fact that they may have been stored unsafely (illegally).

Edited June 28, 2013 by The_Squid

[The_Squid]

Harper done some good for once.http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/06/28/pol-pmo-guns-alberta.htmlTelling the RCMP to give the firearms back to the people pronto.

So you believe unsafe (illegally) stored guns should just be left there?

They should be charging these people and not giving them back.

[WWWTT]

It sounds like that the RCMP have overstepped their authority (again) on this one.

I believe if the police have the owners consent to enter,then this would be legal.

WWWTT

[GostHacked]

So you believe unsafe (illegally) stored guns should just be left there?

They should be charging these people and not giving them back.

Yeah screw it, they must have deserved getting their homes flooded too.

The RCMP was to focus on search and rescue of people, not firearms. Could be the way the story was framed to make it seem like the RCMP were just after the guns.

Since the town was also evacuated, what hard was it anyways?

Alberta may also have different firearms storage laws. I don't know. Think these people have enough to deal with than the cops stealing stuff. Also was a state of emergency declared? Martial law? If not, then the RCMP should be charged with break and enter. The law is the law .. right??

[cybercoma]

It sounds as if these guns were not stored safely. These guns should certainly be seized by the RCMP.

If that's the case then good for the RCMP. They were saving these people problems later on if someone had broken into their homes and stolen them.

[WWWTT]

Yeah screw it, they must have deserved getting their homes flooded too.

The RCMP was to focus on search and rescue of people, not firearms. Could be the way the story was framed to make it seem like the RCMP were just after the guns.

Since the town was also evacuated, what hard was it anyways?

Alberta may also have different firearms storage laws. I don't know. Think these people have enough to deal with than the cops stealing stuff. Also was a state of emergency declared? Martial law? If not, then the RCMP should be charged with break and enter. The law is the law .. right??

You got it GH

As far as I'm concerned,the RCMP shouldn't be even forcibly entering into homes to look for people!

Just send out the evacuation order and a follow up courtecy knock on the door.

If no one answers then off to the next house.

Sounds like the cops used the circumstance to seize property.

WWWTT

Edited June 28, 2013 by WWWTT

[Argus]

There is a lot we don't know. The RCMP have only said that they seized a large number of guns. That, to me, sounds odd. Do people in High River tend to leave all their guns out on the coffee table unlocked? That seems unlikely. So was the RCMP rooting around in closets looking for what they could find? I don't like the sound of that. The RCMP have admitted they broke into many of these houses, so this sounds suspiciously like break, enter and theft.

[The_Squid]

If indeed these guns were stored unsafely then they should absolutely be taken away. It isn't hard to store guns safely. If the cops had reason to be there, then they can't simply turn a blind eye to unsafe (illegal) firearms.

They should not be going through closets, etc.... Nor should they take away safely stored firearms. But if they were out in the open, then take them away and charge the owner with a crime. These idiots don't deserve to have firearms if they can't follow simple storage laws.

Alberta has the same firearms storage laws as the rest of Canada.

[scribblet]

There is a lot we don't know. The RCMP have only said that they seized a large number of guns. That, to me, sounds odd. Do people in High River tend to leave all their guns out on the coffee table unlocked? That seems unlikely. So was the RCMP rooting around in closets looking for what they could find? I don't like the sound of that. The RCMP have admitted they broke into many of these houses, so this sounds suspiciously like break, enter and theft.

Those people are still not being allowed back into their homes, even though it's dry now. The whole thing is weird and needs more explanation.

From reports I have read, from people involved in the confiscation of guns in High River, they broke into the houses, THEN found the guns. They didn’t look through the living room window and see guns on the coffee table. I have also heard reports that they searched in closets and behind dressers. Not exactly what I would call “in sight.”

The fact that these guns were in a locked home should have been enough and police should never be allowed to break into people’s homes on a wholesale scale such as they did in High River. Gun owners go on vacation don't they, does this mean that the RCMP can break into your home while you are on holiday, search your home then confiscate your property ?

A long-gun is considered to be under “safe storage” if it has a trigger lock, or is in a locked container. There is no legal definition of a locked container.

Is not a locked house a “container”? Especially when it is patrolled by armed RCMP and Military? Having your home broken into by the authorities and your property taken is about as bad as it gets. Can you imagine if they did that in the U.S.

Edited June 28, 2013 by scribblet

[scribblet]

I got this in an email and no link, so am posting the whole thing.

CANADIAN SHOOTING SPORTS ASSOCIATION / CANADIAN INSTITUTE FOR LEGISLATIVE ACTION

TEAM CSSA SPECIAL REPORT - June 28, 2013

RCMP's high-handedness in High River reveals gun confiscation agenda

Residents leave firearms in houses during flood evacuation - so what?

The RCMP in High River, Alberta have breached and sullied their contract with the public to serve and protect.

When private citizens were forced to evacuate the town as flood waters threatened their safety, police and the military forcibly entered the abandoned residences and confiscated firearms. They police admit they seized "a large quantity of firearms," and claimed that public safety was at stake. They did not explain how the firearms posed a threat -- because there wasn't one.

"This act of aggression is further proof that the RCMP have a not-so-hidden agenda to take guns away from responsible gun owners," says Tony Bernardo, executive director of the Canadian Institute for Legislative Action (CILA) and the Canadian Shooting Sports Association CSSA). "How is leaving your home for a flood any different than leaving to watch the kids play hockey or go on vacation? The police went rogue and operated way beyond their mandate. They spun out of control under the guise of being public safety caretakers. In these situations, the police simply secure the area and refuse admittance to non-residents.

"The RCMP has much to answer for by stealing guns from private citizens," adds Bernardo. "We are advised that the Prime Minister's Office will examine whether the rights of Canadians have been ignored by the police. I am confident that the federal government will deal swiftly with those who have portrayed Canada as a police state in the eyes of the of the world. While the poor souls of High River clean up their homes, the government needs to clean up Canada's law enforcement agency. The government must run the police, not the other way round."

The police have a mandate to safeguard homes from looters and criminals during a natural disaster. The RCMP prohibited the public from entering the flood zone, including residents who wanted to inspect the damage in their residences. With police and military guarding the flood perimeter and patrolling streets, there was no need to break into private homes.

CSSA/CILA wants an investigation into whether houses with firearms were specifically targeted. If the homes were hand-picked, it could be evidence that the RCMP has retained and still uses the data from the federal firearms registry that Parliament ordered scrapped. Firearms owners are seeking assurance that the registry data is not available for clandestine police searches.

"The residents of High River have good cause to be angry and they are making themselves heard," adds Bernardo. "Someone told a reporter it's like living in Nazi Germany, and that there is some shameful truth to that statement. There are many excellent police officers out there who recognize that responsible firearm owners obey the law. Unfortunately, sometimes they are led by police officials who issue commands like this one. If the RCMP are looking for looters, they only need a mirror"

[WWWTT]

From reports I have read, from people involved in the confiscation of guns in High River, they broke into the houses, THEN found the guns. They didn’t look through the living room window and see guns on the coffee table. I have also heard reports that they searched in closets and behind dressers. Not exactly what I would call “in sight.”

I can understand the RCMP looking for family pets in closets and under dressers.

But not looking in drawers.

However,it's the pet owners to take care of their pets,not the police.

WWWTT

[scribblet]

Pets ??

The RCMP and Military who took possession of the guns wrapped them in police tape and wrote on the tape the address where the gun was taken from. This info was also recorded in the officers notebook.

While their intentions may well be to return the firearms, they want proof of ownership. How many people would have a sales receipt for a 40 or 50 year old gun? Also, they will want to see a PAL.

[cybercoma]

Also, they will want to see a PAL.

You have a problem with people needing a license now?

[Guest Derek L]

I'm wondering under what law the RCMP can break into people's homes and seize firearms without warrants etc. I'm not clear if they broke into every house looking for firearms, or if they knew which houses had them. If they knew then how did they get access to that information as the gun registry is now defunct.

Were all of these seized firearms just sitting around the house unsecured, or did they also break into the required secured lock boxes. If they did, that would take some doing as the storage container has to be hard to break into.

The town was cordoned off so no one would be getting in and stealing them so this seems big over the top to me.

http://firearmslaw.ca/gun-law-resources/firearms-storage-transportation/

http://www.canada.com/news/alberta/RCMP+seized+High+River+firearms+from+homes+control/8588851/story.html

Canadian Firearms Act.......

[Guest Derek L]

What's even more concerning is that people have to provide proof that the guns are theirs for them to be returned. Think about that for a second. Their homes were all but destroyed in the floods and they have to somehow prove the guns are theirs to get them back. Substitute "guns" for any other legal-to-own item. At first glance this is a step too far by the RCMP. However, things aren't that simple. I can appreciate that they're worried about looting and the kind of things that went down in New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina. They may even be concerned about looters stealing people's firearms. The RCMP may feel as though they're doing the right thing protecting gun owners from losing their firearms to thieves and the black market. But we have to ask ourselves if the ends justify the means. And that's something that I need to reflect on further because I just don't know.

It’s not the difficult…….The RCMP catalogued which guns they took from which house……..When normalcy returns, the owners go to the detachment with a Drivers Licence and their PAL/RPAL and ask for their guns back.

[Guest Derek L]

If the RCMP are in the home legally to check for residents and they saw guns that were not safely stored, then they would most likely be allowed to take them.

If they took firearms that were safely stored or if it was not lawful for the RCMP to be there in the first place, then the seizures would seem to be improper and I would be irate if this happened to me!

That’s correct……..The RCMP didn’t seize guns stored in safes, trigger locked or with the bolts removed.

[Guest Derek L]

It sounds as if these guns were not stored safely. These guns should certainly be seized by the RCMP.

. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/06/28/pol-pmo-guns-alberta.html

And of course the PMO has reacted in a knee jerk fashion demanding the RCMP return the guns, despite the fact that they may have been stored unsafely (illegally).

That’s a grey area………Guns don’t have to be stored when the owners home……if the owner is quickly evacuated by the authorities due to the flooding, that’s beyond their control…….With that said, if the RCMP found loaded firearms, said owners will likely face criminal charges and a lifetime ban on legal gun ownership.