Salvation Army says “Gays Need to Be Put to Death”

[cybercoma]

It's pretty simple American Woman. Muslims are to Christians, not the SA. Squid has it exactly right.

[Mighty AC]

AW, Christians kill doctors, attack homosexuals, protest military funerals, etc.
Are all Christians reprehensible? No. However, those that knowingly belong to groups and congregations that preach or engage in violence, hate or discrimination are.

Works the same for Muslims as well.

I was a supporter of the SA. This story caused me to read about their long and ongoing fight against equal rights. I don't feel bad for supporting them in the past, but I should be considered part of the problem if I continued to support them.

[Guest American Woman]

AW, Christians kill doctors, attack homosexuals, protest military funerals, etc.

Are all Christians reprehensible? No. However, those that knowingly belong to groups and congregations that preach or engage in violence, hate or discrimination are.

Works the same for Muslims as well.

I was a supporter of the SA. This story caused me to read about their long and ongoing fight against equal rights. I don't feel bad for supporting them in the past, but I should be considered part of the problem if I continued to support them.

I've never denied what individual Christians do. I agree that it doesn't make them all reprehensible. I'm responding to the notion that the whole SA is sullied because of this one person in Australia; that people would not give at Christmas time, to all the needy people who are helped by the SA, because of this one person in Australia. If one Muslim were to say something ugly, and plenty have, some of the same crowd would be the first to say 'it's just one person, not representative of the whole.'

Again. Giving to those in need at Christmas, those they help, isn't supporting them; it's supporting those in need. That's my point. Furthermore, some of those secular organizations could have some people with questionable beliefs within their ranks, too - yet no one seems to question that.

[cybercoma]

This one person? It was their media relations officer.

[Mighty AC]

It's also in their handbook. Thanks to this story I was also alerted to the fact that the SA has been lobbying against equal rights for years. With so many charitable organizations to choose from, I think it's just right to find a more moral option. If down the road I find out that other charities I support engage in hateful practices I will drop them as well.

[Mighty AC]

Here is another ugly Salvation Army story and it is set in Australia again.

An Australian commission is hearing allegations of the physical and sexual abuse of boys in the care of the Salvation Army over several decades.

The shocking treatment at some of the organization's boys homes included rape, beatings, locking boys in cages and, in one case, forcing a boy to eat his own vomit, the commission was told Tuesday.

The current phase is focusing on the Salvation Army's response to abuse that took place in four of its boys homes in the states of Queensland and New South Wales in the 1960s and '70s.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/28/world/asia/australia-salvation-army-abuse-hearing/

[cybercoma]

We're just hearing about it now? wtf?

[Argus]

I'm more than a bit jaundiced about all these "look how nasty they were in the past' kind of investigations. They tend to apply today's standards and sophistication to a previous time and focus on an individual group plucked out of the context of the society in which they existed.I'll go so far as to say ANY boarding school from decades past was going to have physical and sexual abuse, particularly when the children in question were orphans or poor. I've read some bad enough stuff even about the higher class boarding schools from previous generations, especially in the UK.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Argus

[cybercoma]

I'm more than a bit jaundiced about all these "look how nasty they were in the past' kind of investigations. They tend to apply today's standards and sophistication to a previous time and focus on an individual group plucked out of the context of the society in which they existed.I'll go so far as to say ANY boarding school from decades past was going to have physical and sexual abuse, particularly when the children in question were orphans or poor. I've read some bad enough stuff even about the higher class boarding schools from previous generations, especially in the UK.

Are you mad? How can you justify physical and sexual abuse of children as if it were any more acceptable then because it was a different time? You're jaundiced, Argus, really? You have utter resentment for these investigations, do you? I hope I'm misunderstanding the intent of your post because it's at best in bad taste.

[Michael Hardner]

Are you mad? How can you justify physical and sexual abuse of children as if it were any more acceptable then because it was a different time? You're jaundiced, Argus, really? You have utter resentment for these investigations, do you? I hope I'm misunderstanding the intent of your post because it's at best in bad taste.

I don't know what he meant by 'investigations' - I presume he's speaking of the tone in the press and in the public sphere (to use Habermas' term) accompanying the 'story'.

[cybercoma]

I don't know what he meant by 'investigations' - I presume he's speaking of the tone in the press and in the public sphere (to use Habermas' term) accompanying the 'story'.

I take back what I said if that's the case, but I thought he meant the actual legal investigations that have happened.

[jacee]

Many of us have been interpreting the "hate the sin, not the sinner" idea this way for years.

That's still calling homosexual behaviour a sin.

There have been many many sins perpetrated against children by so called Christian organizations masquerading in the guise of 'good works'.

.

[Michael Hardner]

That's still calling homosexual behaviour a sin.

Yes, and unless you make religious opinions illegal you won't be able to stop people from saying that.

There have been many many sins perpetrated against children by so called Christian organizations masquerading in the guise of 'good works'.

.

Yes, or in other words hypocrites exist.

[Mighty AC]

Yes, and unless you make religious opinions illegal you won't be able to stop people from saying that.

Hopefully religious opinion will never be illegal, but I pray for the day that it will be as relevant as witchcraft is currently.

[Argus]

Are you mad? How can you justify physical and sexual abuse of children as if it were any more acceptable then because it was a different time? You're jaundiced, Argus, really? You have utter resentment for these investigations, do you? I hope I'm misunderstanding the intent of your post because it's at best in bad taste.

I'm not justifying anything, oh self-righteous one. I'm saying that was how it was EVERYWHERE. It was an era when children were expected to be instantly obedient or else got smacked down hard. Corporal punishment was the norm everywhere, especially in boarding schools, including the highest priced ones. If you told people you didn't believe in spanking children in the forties or fifties they'd have thought you were crazy, and a bad parent.

To quote from the story "In cases when abuse was reported, the boys were often disbelieved and were punished for reporting what were characterized as 'lies,'" he told the hearing.

Indeed. That was the situation then, not merely at those boarding schools but at all schools, public and private, at police stations, in hospitals, and at private homes.

[Argus]

Yes, and unless you make religious opinions illegal you won't be able to stop people from saying that.

Yes, or in other words hypocrites exist.

Speaking of hypocrites, there's the United Nations and it's committee on "rights of the child' and it's nasty condemnation of the Catholic Church that came out the other day.

I found two things particularly hypocrtical about this report. First, they went beyond their mandate, and criticized the Catholics for their attitude towards homosexuals, sex education and contraception.

Huh!? Given the makeup of this committee includied members from Saudi Arabia, Russia, Tunisia, Morocco, Malaysia, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Bahrain, and Ghana, where homosexuality is ILLEGAL, where public sex education is virtually non-existent, and where children have NO rights whatsoever, I find this a little, well, laughable.

The second reason, none of those countries ever experienced the sort of enlightenment which has occured in the West over the past decades. What happens in the home stays in the home there. If you want to beat your wife and children, no one is going to bother you about it. As for reporting child sexual abuse, forget it. Pedophila has always been far, FAR more tolerated in the Muslim world than it ever was in the West, and continues to be tolerated there. So to see people representing Muslim countries yelling at the Catholics for what happened decades ago is more than a bit rich.

Anyone want to bet when the UN strikes a committee to yell at the Muslim world for its tolerance of spousal abuse and child sexual abuse?

[Mighty AC]

The Vatican deserves criticism for the way it has handled sex offenders and so do the countries you mentioned. I'm surprised but happy that the UN was so critical in their report. However, condemning their criticism is the wrong approach. We should be encouraging to chastise more members, more often.

[jacee]

I'm not justifying anything, oh self-righteous one. I'm saying that was how it was EVERYWHERE. It was an era when children were expected to be instantly obedient or else got smacked down hard. Corporal punishment was the norm everywhere, especially in boarding schools, including the highest priced ones. If you told people you didn't believe in spanking children in the forties or fifties they'd have thought you were crazy, and a bad parent.

To quote from the story "In cases when abuse was reported, the boys were often disbelieved and were punished for reporting what were characterized as 'lies,'" he told the hearing.

Indeed. That was the situation then, not merely at those boarding schools but at all schools, public and private, at police stations, in hospitals, and at private homes.

Quote the real context, Argus. It's not about "spanking" or "obedience", but about sexual assault:

Allegations of widespread sexual assault carried out by Salvation Army officers and some of the boys under their supervision were also outlined.

At the Bexley home, members of the public also abused boys, Beckett said, possibly with the knowledge of Salvation Army staff members.

"These persons had access to the boys' dormitories at night and would access the dormitories and sexually assault the boys," he said.

Complaints dismissed.

Evidence suggests that many of the boys didn't complain about the sexual abuse at the time because they feared punishment or retribution, Beckett said.Those who did complain weren't generally taken seriously."In cases when abuse was reported, the boys were often disbelieved and were punished for reporting what were characterized as 'lies,'" he told the hearing.

I don't care what era it occurred.

It's a heinous crime.

And if it's only coming to light now, it deserves to be punished to the max.

And we need to ask .... why is it always religious organizations involved in these crimes?

Were they charging money for "members of the public" to sexually abuse children in their care? Did they sell children as sex slaves?

.

Edited February 7, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

And we need to ask .... why is it always religious organizations involved in these crimes?

Were they charging money for "members of the public" to sexually abuse children in their care? Did they sell children as sex slaves?

.

Why on earth would you think it was always religious organizations? These sorts of crimes happened everywhere, primarily in the home. The vast majority of those who sexually and physically assault children are called "Mom" and "Dad", with some uncles and aunts thrown in. Teachers are probably the most commonly arrested professionals, as are coaches. It's simply a matter of who has access to children. If chlidren are in a boarding school, particularly children without parents (which makes them especially vulnerable) then it's not surprising this sort of thing would happen there. Religion has nothing to do with it.

[jacee]

Why on earth would you think it was always religious organizations? These sorts of crimes happened everywhere, primarily in the home. The vast majority of those who sexually and physically assault children are called "Mom" and "Dad", with some uncles and aunts thrown in. Teachers are probably the most commonly arrested professionals, as are coaches. It's simply a matter of who has access to children. If chlidren are in a boarding school, particularly children without parents (which makes them especially vulnerable) then it's not surprising this sort of thing would happen there. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Religion does have something to do with it when they're systematically covering up sexual abuse.

They're putting the reputation of their church ahead of the safety of vulnerable children in their care.

.

[Argus]

Religion does have something to do with it when they're systematically covering up sexual abuse.

They're putting the reputation of their church ahead of the safety of vulnerable children in their care.

.

Yes, but that's not religion, that's bureacracy.

[jacee]

Yes, but that's not religion, that's bureacracy.

Weasel words.

Does their RELIGION not cause them to override church bureaucracy?

APPARENTLY NOT!!!

[WestCoastRunner]

The UN committee on the rights of children has denounced the Vatican over child abuse and demands immediate action and has released a report of the findings.

Barbara Bain, President of the U.S. based Survivors Network of Those Abused described the report as a scathing indictment of the way the Vatican has handled the scandle. "This day has been a long time coming, but the international community is finally holding the Vatican accountable for its role in enabling and perpetuating sexual violence in the church," said Katherine Gallagher, a senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights. "The whole world will be watching to ensure that the Vatican takes the concrete steps required by the UN to protect children and end these crimes. Impunity and cover-up, including at the highest levels of the church, will not be tolerated."

And this is nothing to do with religion??? It has everything to do with it.

[eyeball]

Why on earth would you think it was always religious organizations? These sorts of crimes happened everywhere, primarily in the home. The vast majority of those who sexually and physically assault children are called "Mom" and "Dad", with some uncles and aunts thrown in. Teachers are probably the most commonly arrested professionals, as are coaches. It's simply a matter of who has access to children. If chlidren are in a boarding school, particularly children without parents (which makes them especially vulnerable) then it's not surprising this sort of thing would happen there. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Most of this abuse can probably be attributed to the example that some of humankind's most venerated institutions have been setting for centuries now.

Religion has given rise to some of the biggest pedophile rings on the planet. There is no institution that even comes close to this sort of organized depravity.

I suppose you could try to argue that it's actually religion that takes it cue from Mom's and Dad's etc but...good luck with that.

Edited February 10, 2014 by eyeball

[jacee]

The UN committee on the rights of children has denounced the Vatican over child abuse and demands immediate action and has released a report of the findings.

Barbara Bain, President of the U.S. based Survivors Network of Those Abused described the report as a scathing indictment of the way the Vatican has handled the scandle. "This day has been a long time coming, but the international community is finally holding the Vatican accountable for its role in enabling and perpetuating sexual violence in the church," said Katherine Gallagher, a senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights. "The whole world will be watching to ensure that the Vatican takes the concrete steps required by the UN to protect children and end these crimes. Impunity and cover-up, including at the highest levels of the church, will not be tolerated."

And this is nothing to do with religion??? It has everything to do with it.

Absolutely.

Can you provide a link for that, wcr?