From my cold dead hands!

[Wilber]

The issue here is who should be a legal gun owner and how do you determine it, not the legal ownership of guns.

[Guest Derek L]

The issue here is who should be a legal gun owner and how do you determine it, not the legal ownership of guns.

Remember, and due to the nature of the internet you’ll have to take my word for it, I’m a legal gun owner that goes above the letter of the law out of fear of an extended stay in Club Fed….Orange doesn’t flatter me, and I don’t desire a boyfriend or a cafeteria diet…….Do I, a self-proclaimed gun snob have a itching desire to own and carry out illegal acts with a plastic Star Trek gun I made in the basement? Of course not, and I ‘m sure I can speak for the majority of over legal gun owners………But will criminals care?

And my point is this will force a realistic discussion, fore limiting what type of guns I own, be they single shot bolt action rifles, revolvers or semi-auto AR-15 etc won’t play into what a criminal will be able to produce in a few short years…….They have made a working all plastic 3-D gun….they have 3-D printers that can use metals as opposed to plastic….For Christ Sake, Partisans made fully automatic Sten guns in bicycle shops during the war, now today’s (or near future) criminals will be able to make them in apartments well smoking a joint and texting their buddies or playing XBOX….

Legislating who can and can’t own a firearm, coupled with what type of firearm and the size of the magazine is going to be a futile exercise……folks like me with abide by the laws, guys like Adama Lanza and the local “UN gang” will just print these off:

And the simple action of the fully auto 9mm Sten:

Resulting in this:

I honestly don’t envy the threat and ensuing work our men and women in law enforcement will face in the near future when home made printable actual “assault rifles” start hitting the streets…..Like I said above, I just hope a honest discussion will occur prior on the actual causes of gun related crime.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's still easier to just buy a real gun....or make a zip gun out of commonly available parts from any decent hardware store.

[Guest Derek L]

It's still easier to just buy a real gun....or make a zip gun out of commonly available parts from any decent hardware store.

Yeah, today it is......but in the near future? What's a fully Sten or grease gun worth in the States? 15k? In a few years, someone will be able to produce them from home....

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah, today it is......but in the near future? What's a fully Sten or grease gun worth in the States? 15k? In a few years, someone will be able to produce them from home....

A dedicated gunsmith can make them now. But it's easier to just convert semi-autos. All it takes is common hand tools. Can't put an armed genie back in the bottle.

[Guest Derek L]

A dedicated gunsmith can make them now. But it's easier to just convert semi-autos. All it takes is common hand tools. Can't put an armed genie back in the bottle.

Sure, but a semi-skilled gunsmith is required.....versus just making one from the comfort of home.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure, but a semi-skilled gunsmith is required.....versus just making one from the comfort of home.

I just don't see it....drug gangs with an IT department for printers, software, and polymer consumables ?

[Guest Derek L]

I just don't see it....drug gangs with an IT department for printers, software, and polymer consumables ?

Why not? Some gangs do have the services of a "black-market" gunsmith, even then, converting a semi-auto to an actual, safe to operate, full auto, despite what the media and gun grabbers alike would have the public believe, is next to impossible......

I’ve got sitting beside me right now a Norinco M-305, a Chinese knock-off of the Springfield M1A (I have one of those in the safe too), which is the civilian semi-auto only cousin of the actual M-14, which by fate would have it, would have been made by Chinese gunsmiths with the tools and dies sold to them by the United States Government that were used prior in the manufacturing of the actual M-14.…….

Now I’m not a gunsmith, but I do know a thing or two about firearms, and I don’t see how if I so desired (and the law allowed of course) I could turn this rifle into a proper select fire automatic…..sure I could dick with and file some bits on the trigger group that would allow an uncontrolled slam fire, but I’d likely end up with the bolt traveling through my forehead after the first “test fire”….In actual fact, I'd need a new receiver and trigger group...in essence a new gun.

Contrast with the near-term viability of an 18 year old gang member with a computer, internet connection and a 3-D printer spitting out actual functioning automatics……

I agree, the genie in many aspects was let out years ago, but this revelation will only compound the point.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

Three things on that:

1) In general (there are exceptions), any military firearm sold as a civilian version can usually be upgraded with the bits and machining to enable selective burst and full automatic fire. In some cases it is as simple as filing away on levers, detents, etc.

2) Any repeating firearm can (in theory and practice) be automated through external mechanism(s).

3) The heat from automatic fire will be a real challenge for plastic or polymer parts, necessitating a metal or ceramic sleeve and/or cooling.

Print me a fully functioning Gatling Gun or GAU-8 cannon and I will be impressed !

[Guest Derek L]

Three things on that:

1) In general (there are exceptions), any military firearm sold as a civilian version can usually be upgraded with the bits and machining to enable selective burst and full automatic fire. In some cases it is as simple as filing away on levers, detents, etc.

2) Any repeating firearm can (in theory and practice) be automated through external mechanism(s).

3) The heat from automatic fire will be a real challenge for plastic or polymer parts, necessitating a metal or ceramic sleeve and/or cooling.

Print me a fully functioning Gatling Gun or GAU-8 cannon and I will be impressed !

But that's an often repeated myth........Commercial AR-15s or Springfield/Norinco M1A can’t be converted……They would both need a new receiver and entirely new trigger group, and in the case of the AR-15, a full auto bolt carrier……..As such, you remove these above mentioned parts of a semi-auto rifle, all you’re left with is the barrel, magazine and stock……Kinda like the axe that’s been in the family for generations, it’s only had the head replaced twice and the handle three times…..Now a fully auto M-16 or M-14 can be converted to semi-auto only, and they could be converted back………But not commercial civilian arms without the aide of a skilled gunsmith and machine shop……….

Edited May 6, 2013 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

The parts are readily available from the dark web, and the U.S. has at least two very popular gunsmith cable television programs just for entertainment. In a few days one could build an automatic firearm and save the cost of a printer ! It's not rocket science, and .22 LR ammo is very forgiving on chamber pressure.

I will also say that any witch hunt for guns in the U.S. would only spur more homemade or modified firearms, regardless of any fancy plastic parts printer. America loves guns....all kinds of guns....especially real ones !

12 gauge machine gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNahtMMh4uI

[Guest Derek L]

The parts are readily available from the dark web, and the U.S. has at least two very popular gunsmith cable television programs just for entertainment. In a few days one could build an automatic firearm and save the cost of a printer ! It's not rocket science, and .22 LR ammo is very forgiving on chamber pressure.

I will also say that any witch hunt for guns in the U.S. would only spur more homemade or modified firearms, regardless of any fancy plastic parts printer. America loves guns....all kinds of guns....especially real ones !

12 gauge machine gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNahtMMh4uI

Sure, making a complete new machine gun would be easier then converting a commercial firearm………Of course doing such without a firearms manufactures license, a tax stamp and a BATF licence, and getting caught, is a quick way to land you in Club Fed.......And I’m certain buddy with his belt fed 12 gauge has a legal class three M-16 lower…If not, based on the video being posted four years ago, I’d bet money he’s making licence plates today………Any United States citizen can go through a BATF process (similar to our RPAL) to buy an actual automatic lower…….Oh, and of course, needs $5000-$10000.……….

[Guest Derek L]

Hmmm:

http://www.shootersdepot.com/sd_automatics.html

Full auto M-14:

For one low price of $29499........

Or for those on a budget:

M-16:

Only $16999........

But my personal favorite:

M2 .50Cal

Only $56999..........Not bad for a gun that shoots nearly $2000 worth of ammo a minute.......

I wonder how many 3-D printers, and in turn how many cheap and dirty automatics could be made for that kind of scratch?

[bush_cheney2004]

I wonder how many 3-D printers, and in turn how many cheap and dirty automatics could be made for that kind of scratch?

Beats me, but I don't want to be anywhere near a "printed" .50 cal when it is in single or auto mode.

[Guest Derek L]

Beats me, but I don't want to be anywhere near a "printed" .50 cal when it is in single or auto mode.

Funny, I use to have the same thoughts about polymer guns………..regardless, 3-D printer technology to shape metals is already upon us………Like everything these days, there’s no reasons the technology won’t improve and proliferate at a rapid pace…….Like I said above, the plans for his plastic AR-15 lower are already available online….same with 30 round STANAG mags....

[bush_cheney2004]

Funny, I use to have the same thoughts about polymer guns………..regardless, 3-D printer technology to shape metals is already upon us………Like everything these days, there’s no reasons the technology won’t improve and proliferate at a rapid pace…….Like I said above, the plans for his plastic AR-15 lower are already available online….same with 30 round STANAG mags....

Well, the STANAG mags were easy even without 3D printing....simple cloning and injection molds can replicate those. I am sure the printer can duplicate the gun parts, but materials science ain't a gonna change the rules for chamber pressures and heat.

Edited May 7, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

Well, the STANAG mags were easy even without 3D printing....simple cloning and injection molds can replicate those. I am sure the printer can duplicate the gun parts, but materials science ain't a gonna change the rules for chamber pressures and heat.

It doesn't need to.......There's this guy, goes by the name of Gaston Glock.......Says he’s going to make a 9mm pistol with a unsupported chamber and polymer frame……..I think he’s crazy and surely after firing such a gun, if your dink didn’t fall off, it would explode in your hand and put your eye out…..the gun that is

Edited May 7, 2013 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

What Glock does and what a printer can do are very different to my way of thinking, unless there is a post printing process for curing resins or cross linking the polymers.

[Guest Derek L]

What Glock does and what a printer can do are very different to my way of thinking, unless there is a post printing process for curing resins or cross linking the polymers.

Maybe there will be.........But will a printed gun have to be as durable as Glock service pistol? I'm mean a Glock can have thousands of round put through the pipe (I've done it) without any signs of wear, giving good service to say a police force for decades.......But will a printed gun have to even? I mean after you've put a few hundred rounds through one, if the gun is developing excessive wear, you could print replacement parts......or a whole new gun.........

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, I am sure you have seen some cheap guns...disposables. My old man had a few .25 cal "Saturday Night Specials" that were probably good for a few rounds. In that case, just print some grenades or cluster bombs.

[Guest Derek L]

Well, I am sure you have seen some cheap guns...disposables. My old man had a few .25 cal "Saturday Night Specials" that were probably good for a few rounds. In that case, just print some grenades or cluster bombs.

Why not? At the very least, you could print casting moulds, for casting moulds and make all sorts of “goodies”…….

[Argus]

I thought the point was glaringly obvious……sorry if that’s not the case……….The point exemplified, restrictions place upon a $1500 semi-auto AR-15 will be moot when an individual can go to Staples and purchase a 3-D printer and produce as many “military grade” fully automatic firearms in their basement as they so desire……..Said 3-D guns, unlike the varying levels of complexity associated with some of the wiring of improvised explosives devices, will literally be able to be produced by a teenager that can work the internet and click print…….

And if we put every one of them who makes one in prison for ten years, then pretty soon they'll stop making them, eh?

[Guest Derek L]

And if we put every one of them who makes one in prison for ten years, then pretty soon they'll stop making them, eh?

I doubt it.........Putting some sickos that gets their rocks off of kiddie porn into prison hasn’t appeared to ebb the flow………Supply and demand…….

[Argus]

I doubt it.........Putting some sickos that gets their rocks off of kiddie porn into prison hasn’t appeared to ebb the flow………Supply and demand…….

That's a, excuse the term, natural urge, given that they have psychological issues.

Are you saying gun nuts are suffering from a psychological disorder which makes them crave illegal firearms regardless of laws?

[Guest Derek L]

That's a, excuse the term, natural urge, given that they have psychological issues.

Are you saying gun nuts are suffering from a psychological disorder which makes them crave illegal firearms regardless of laws?

No.