Lawless North

[Muddy]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/21/opp-inaction-results-in-lawless-north

I hope I did this right . It is my first time trying to add a new subject.

Now with that said ,it is has always been my belief that we are subject to laws. That a police person has a sworn duty to protect us according to the law. When a judge lays down the law and gives a direct order I was under the impression that our police were duty bound to inforce the directive ! Am I wrong ?

To my eye from gleaning this article there is no question who is breaking the law . This is not a two sided arguement. If you or I tryed to block the street we live on to the detriment of neighbours we would be removed by the police without a court order and darn fast too!. As it should be. The mineing company is being held up from going about it`s lawful business with the aid of the OPP by not inforceing a court order. How can this happen in Canada ?

Should the mineing company hire some toughs to remove the lawless road blockers ? I would hate to see that happen. Some heads might get broke. I believe in the rule of law . But where is the law? Must be very frustrating for those trying to go about their lawful business.

This reminds of some B Movie out of the old west . A lawless country where highway men rule the road.

[jacee]

Paywall.

no idea what you're talking about.

[Muddy]

Paywall.

no idea what you're talking about.

Gosh ,I am sorry ,I must have done something wrong. I thought I posted a link to the subject matter. Can you help me out here please.

[waldo]

your link is fine for anyone that hasn't maxed out the Sun's allocated number of 'free views'... here's a CBC article with the same thrust:

Attawapiskat blockade may force De Beers to close mine - Diamond miner says it is still waiting for action on court-ordered injunction

[Muddy]

Thanks Waldo for the help ,that was kind of you .

I hope this is a post that will bring some interest. It certainly got some replys from viewers on the CBC article that you posted.

I find it hard that any body would not be concerned about inforcement of the law in what we percieve as country run by the rule of law..

[Topaz]

I went searching for the agreement between the two and I found this, so does any know what exactly the problem are that the First Nation people have? http://www.mdllp.ca/work/pr_attawapiskat_de_beers.pdf

[Accountability Now]

I went searching for the agreement between the two and I found this, so does any know what exactly the problem are that the First Nation people have? http://www.mdllp.ca/work/pr_attawapiskat_de_beers.pdf

It sounds like the family or families that are blocking the mine have a personal grievance with De Beers saying that they have not been compensated with enough money for their traplines and for the fact the mine is so close to a burial site of their ancestors.

According to an APTN report, the protestors seem to be freelancers — locals from Attawapiskat who are upset with De Beers for “a number of grievances ranging from personal, past employment and pay issues with De Beers, to the lack of housing in the community, the need for compensation over the loss of traditional traplines and burial sites along with overarching environmental issues.” http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/21/jonathan-kay-natives-hurting-themselves-with-lawless-blockade-of-de-beers-mine/

The bottom line is that De Beers made an agreement with Attawapiskat where 85% of the band ratified the agreement. Now...some of the people are saying they didn't get enough. That is BS.

[Muddy]

I went searching for the agreement between the two and I found this, so does any know what exactly the problem are that the First Nation people have? http://www.mdllp.ca/work/pr_attawapiskat_de_beers.pdf

Well it sure looks like a few Native folks are upset they are not getting compensation for their hunting and trapping grounds. Unfortunately for them they are blocking the wrong road. The agreement was with the band and compensation was paid to the band to distribute. Chief Spence of the recent so called hunger strike is the one they should be talking to. She is the Chief who`s books don`t balance according to auditors. From afar this looks like highway extortion by a few individuals from the band. Or maybe they did not get compensation from the Chief. In any case the Mineing company should not be held up like this and the OPP are not protecting this good corporate citizen. If the ice road does not open this mine may close down and dozens of locals will be put out of work . Not a really good move when you consider other job options in the area.

[jacee]

Gosh ,I am sorry ,I must have done something wrong. I thought I posted a link to the subject matter. Can you help me out here please.

No problem.

Sun and Globe can't always be accessed by everybody.

It's irritating. Not a bad idea, though, to quote the most significant part.

Re Attawapiskat:

Despite what was called a "successful" meeting with protestors and a court injunction issued Friday, a road block on the winter road to the De Beers diamond mine near Attawapiskat continues.

...

Chief Theresa Spence said she and council have been in talks with De Beers, as well as with the people involved in the blockade.

...

Meanwhile, the chief of the Attawapiskat First Nation said she hopes a community meeting Tuesday afternoon will help end the blockade.

Chief Theresa Spence said she and council have been in talks with De Beers, as well as with the people involved in the blockade.

"We're looking at everything, she said. Chief and council, at the end of the day, they're the ones who are going to be sitting down with De Beers. In the meantime, we're listening to the blockaders concerns and putting everything on paper."

Spence said more meetings are scheduled.

Attawapiskat signed an Impact Benefit Agreement with De Beers in 2005, but some band members want to revisit that agreement.

"

Seems to me there's a process going on here.

Judges empower police to act, but cannot order police to breach the peace.

The precedent is that Superior (lower) Court injunctions

are upheld by the Court of Appeal, which also insists that police must have discretion in how to achieve a peaceful resolution.

There are legal rights on both sides.

And there's more in play than this one mine, for future negotiations.

DeBeers wants to mine several more deposits of diamonds, including under Attawapiskat itself.

AND, Muddy, I'd like to ask that the inflammatory thread title be revised. It doesn't reflect a thoughtful approach to these serious issues, but instead risks inciting bias and hostility.

Edited February 22, 2013 by jacee

[Argus]

AND, Muddy, I'd like to ask that the inflammatory thread title be revised. It doesn't reflect a thoughtful approach to these serious issues, but instead risks inciting bias and hostility.

Here's my thoughtful approach. Either the police move these people out of the way, or the courts authorize Debeers to hire its own security to get rid of them.

And I think Debeers should be able to sue the Ontario government for recovery of any and all moneys lost during the period the police failed to do their duty.

[jacee]

Here's my thoughtful approach. Either the police move these people out of the way, or the courts authorize Debeers to hire its own security to get rid of them.

You may not like it, Argus, but a lower court injunction is not the full extent of the law. Superior Court injunctions can be appealed, and have been appealed in similar cases. It will likely be upheld by the Court off Appeal, but an injunction can never be construed as an order to police to perform specific actions: Police determine how and when to act, and will always seek to keep the peace.

And I think Debeers should be able to sue the Ontario government for recovery of any and all moneys lost during the period the police failed to do their duty.

Well again, it depends on how the Court of Appeal sees it, and ultimately the Supreme Court if necessary. The police know the legal precedents from previous cases - ie, the law - and they are there to protect the rights on both sides, and to keep the peace.

The higher courts will never endorse use of force as a resolution, as much as some people want to see that.

As for suing Ontario ... you do realize that comes out of our pockets, eh?

Edited February 22, 2013 by jacee

[Muddy]

Here's my thoughtful approach. Either the police move these people out of the way, or the courts authorize Debeers to hire its own security to get rid of them.

And I think Debeers should be able to sue the Ontario government for recovery of any and all moneys lost during the period the police failed to do their duty.

Why should we the taxpayers of Ontario get sued. Sue the band for allowing these guys from their band to block the road. Debeers have a lawful agreement that their band signed. The band have their own police force. Law in a democracy should be dispenced equally. The OPP and the Native Police have been deralict in their duty. If this was white guys blocking this same road,they would be told to move, then packaged up with force and put into a wagen for transport to the first available lock up. DeBeers must think they have gone into a wierd third world of lawlessness.

Your thought on DeBeers hiring their own security I can understand. They have been abandoned by civilized law.

I don`t understand anyone defending these guys. Whats the difference the colour of skin or heritage when it comes to law.

[Argus]

Why should we the taxpayers of Ontario get sued.

You, the taxpayers, are responsible for electing a cowardly Liberal government which has instructed the police to never go near native protests under any circumstances. Therefore, the taxpayers should be required to pay all costs which these protests impose on businesses or individuals.

[Accountability Now]

You may not like it, Argus, but a lower court injunction is not the full extent of the law. Superior Court injunctions can be appealed, and have been appealed in similar cases.

Are they planning on appealing this? How long do they have before filing an appeal? At some point the court order needs to be acted on if no appeal is placed.

[jacee]

Are they planning on appealing this? How long do they have before filing an appeal? At some point the court order needs to be acted on if no appeal is placed.

I think you're getting the picture: It's much faster for DeBeers to talk it through and reach a resolution, and meetings are in progress.

[TimG]

I think you're getting the picture: It's much faster for DeBeers to talk it through and reach a resolution, and meetings are in progress.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/21/jonathan-kay-natives-hurting-themselves-with-lawless-blockade-of-de-beers-mine/

This blockade is an illustration why it is impossible to resolve these issues in a civilized way.

Deals get signed but all it takes is a few rabble rousers to complain and 'useful idiots' are lining up in the media to claiming 'aboriginal rights' and demanding 'negotiations' (a.k.a. extortion).

At one level, aboriginals show so much contempt for the law that it makes it easier for the government and companies to argue that they have no longer have legal obligations because aboriginals cannot claim the protection of laws that they ignore.

The De Beers Victor Mine, located in the lowlands 90 km west of the James Bay Cree community of Attawapiskat, cost $1-billion to create. Before a single diamond particle was extracted, the company negotiated impact benefit agreements (IBAs) with four local communities — including Attawapiskat. The details of the IBAs are confidential, but the company has publicly declared that “since the start of construction, over $360-million in contracts have been awarded to solely owned or joint venture companies run by [Attawapiskat]. In 2012, contracts awarded to the community were over $40-million. To build capacity within the community, two training facilities have been constructed in the community at a combined cost of almost $2-million. We currently employ over 60 full-time employees from the community, and over 100 from other First Nations.”

In addition to providing all of this employment, infrastructure and money, De Beers operates the 250 km ice road running from the town of Moosonee at the southern tip of James Bay all the way up to Attawapiskat — a massive engineering undertaking that provides three months of car access to communities that are otherwise fly-in dots on the map.

Edited February 23, 2013 by TimG

[scribblet]

This is just another money grab. Even if Deboors agrees to a ton more money it would never be enough, and likely wouldn't see one iota of change in that community.

We've known all along there is one set of laws for us and another for aboriginals.

Given that De Beers essentially has taken on the role of the welfare state in Attawapiskat, perhaps the blockades shouldn’t come as a surprise: Since the company has been generous in the past, it’s not surprising that protestors are looking to see how far they can push things. No doubt, they’re banking on the knowledge that the easiest course for De Beers would be simply to render payment, in some respectably veiled fashion, to whoever can credibly promise to stop the protests.

This is the sort of lawless behaviour that one expects in places such as, say, Nigeria, where Western companies actually budget for such shakedowns. And it’s appalling that it would be tolerated on Canadian soil.

Edited February 23, 2013 by scribblet

[Muddy]

Good post scribblet. Nigeria is a great example. Shakedown is a perfect discription of whats happening. But this is Canada,we operate on the rule of law. We expect our Police to uphold the law and protect us in going about our lawful business. I was trying to find a comparison and you hit the nail on the head. This story sounds like something out of a third world dictatorship.

[Accountability Now]

I think you're getting the picture: It's much faster for DeBeers to talk it through and reach a resolution, and meetings are in progress.

My point is that if no one is appealing it then the decision made by the lower court stands and the police should be doing something to remove these people. It's just another sign of two tier justice.

[jacee]

My point is that if no one is appealing it then the decision made by the lower court stands and the police should be doing something to remove these people.

Police are doing something - negotiating a peaceful resolution.

The blockaders were in court Fri, but I haven't seen the outcome yet.

http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2013/02/22/diamond-mine-ice-road-blockade-shifts-to-attawapiskat-river/

Edited February 23, 2013 by jacee

[Argus]

You may not like it, Argus, but a lower court injunction is not the full extent of the law.

You are forgetting that all the injunction means is a judge has examined what people are doing, and determined it is illegal, and issued an order for them to stop. So we're not talking about the police ignoring an injunction but the police ignoring illegal behavior.

an injunction can never be construed as an order to police to perform specific actions: Police determine how and when to act, and will always seek to keep the peace.

That's nonsense. You don't keep the peace by ignoring criminal behavior right under your nose. The job of police is to keep order, not the peace.

The higher courts will never endorse use of force as a resolution, as much as some people want to see that.

Again, this is nonsense. Our society is built on the use of force. Ultimately, everything ordered by government, from municipal bylaws, to traffic tickets, to taxes to laws against murder are all ultimately upheld by the use of force. And the amount of force used is always related to the amount of resistance. Ultimately, that includes killing people if necessary to uphold the law.

As for suing Ontario ... you do realize that comes out of our pockets, eh?

Obviously. But if the people of Ontario continue to vote into power incompetent weasels then they have to pay for that. Of course, they're already paying for that, and will pay more and more as the years go by. And this should simply be added to that. Why should companies like Debeers be out of pocket because the government is too frightened to enforce basic laws? Edited February 23, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

Police are doing something - negotiating a peaceful resolution.

And if I go out front and start blocking traffic will the police negotiate a peaceful resolution or simply help me block traffic for a few days or weeks until I feel better? Edited February 23, 2013 by Argus

[jacee]

You are forgetting that all the injunction means is a judge has examined what people are doing, and determined it is illegal, and issued an order for them to stop. So we're not talking about the police ignoring an injunction but the police ignoring illegal behavior.That's nonsense. You don't keep the peace by ignoring criminal behavior right under your nose. The job of police is to keep order, not the peace.Again, this is nonsense. Our society is built on the use of force. Ultimately, everything ordered by government, from municipal bylaws, to traffic tickets, to taxes to laws against murder are all ultimately upheld by the use of force. And the amount of force used is always related to the amount of resistance. Ultimately, that includes killing people if necessary to uphold the law.Obviously. But if the people of Ontario continue to vote into power incompetent weasels then they have to pay for that. Of course, they're already paying for that, and will pay more and more as the years go by. And this should simply be added to that. Why should companies like Debeers be out of pocket because the government is too frightened to enforce basic laws?

"The government" isn't making these decisions, and politicians cannot give orders to the police.

The police often monitor peaceful civil disobedience without intervening with force.

Edited February 23, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

And if I go out front and start blocking traffic will the police negotiate a peaceful resolution or simply help me block traffic for a few days or weeks until I feel better?

If you have a cause, and the support of your community you mean?

Police deal with protest and civil disobedience all the time.

[Muddy]

If you have a cause, and the support of your community you mean?

Police deal with protest and civil disobedience all the time.

If you block a street as a white man because you think your getting a raw deal that your city council made for you on your behalf I can guarantee the police would not be waiting for court injunctions ! You would be told to move right now! The only answer out of your mouth would be yes Sir or they would physically take you away. This is race based policeing brought about by political correctness. The Police allowed the Tamils to block University Avenue and the Expressway in Toronto. This illegal protest put peoples lives in jeopardy because they cut off access to several hospitals.

I know my Wife was caught up in trying to get to sick kids because my Grandson was scheduled for surgery. In his case was not life threatening but I am sure that more important emergencys were in jeopardy. Police have a sworn duty to treat all citizens equally if they are breaking the law.