Mass shooting

[Signals.Cpl]

And a properly trained civilian who was packing can solve the issue before the cops arrive, which comes with a high potential to save more lives. All to often the cops arrive after all is said and done and people are dead. Since the response time is the same, does it matter if the cops were carrying AR-15s or a bubble gun?

The issue is events such as the Columbine shooting where the officers show up while the shooting is in progress and this will even up the odds. As far as arming people in order to deal with such threats I personally would not trust many people with a gun, someone opens fire and others join in means that there is all that much chance for a free for all to happen.

[GostHacked]

The issue is events such as the Columbine shooting where the officers show up while the shooting is in progress and this will even up the odds. As far as arming people in order to deal with such threats I personally would not trust many people with a gun, someone opens fire and others join in means that there is all that much chance for a free for all to happen.

Considering the number of people who are carrying concealed, why don't you see that happen more often? Good thing criminals respect 'gun free zones'.

[Signals.Cpl]

Considering the number of people who are carrying concealed, why don't you see that happen more often? Good thing criminals respect 'gun free zones'.

Just because it does not happen often does not mean that the possibility is not there at every such situation and who is to say that the people handling their weapons are competent? What if the gunman enters a building and opens fire only to be met by gun owners who return fire wildly and cause more casualties and damage then would have happened otherwise? What happens when police officers show up to a gun battle and cannot determine who is who and as a result have to fight all the armed people?

[Guest Derek L]

Just because it does not happen often does not mean that the possibility is not there at every such situation and who is to say that the people handling their weapons are competent? What if the gunman enters a building and opens fire only to be met by gun owners who return fire wildly and cause more casualties and damage then would have happened otherwise?

And the same can’t be said for police?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/17/montreal-police-shooting-charges_n_1525842.html

Officers shot a homeless man, Mario Hamel, during a public disturbance. Their gunfire also struck Patrick Limoges, who happened to be walking by on his way to work at a nearby hospital.

Montreal police said they were called as a knife-wielding Hamel tossed garbage around downtown Montreal. Hamel, a mentally ill 40-year-old who lived in a downtown shelter, was cornered by police, ordered to drop his weapon, pepper-sprayed, and ultimately shot.

So guy going to work gets greased by the police, well they’re responding to a nutter with a knife tossing garbage around?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/shooting-victim-testifies-against-officers-200254768.html

Kristofer Fournier told a Winnipeg court on Tuesday about the circumstances around him being shot in the buttocks by a police officer in July 2007.

Const. Darrel Selley is on trial on seven charges, including one count of attempted murder, in connection with the shooting. Selley's partner, Const. Kristopher Overwater, is charged with dangerous driving and is accused of helping Selley fabricate evidence. Their trial began Monday in Winnipeg.

Even if the guy was a scumbag drug dealer, there’s no justification for police shooting him in the ass well he was running away….

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/05/29/bc-paul-boyd-police-review.html

The video shows the last moments of Boyd, a 39-year-old animator, who suffered from bipolar disorder.

Boyd can be seen on his hands and knees on Granville Street, moving toward Const. Chipperfield, who is pointing a gun. The view is briefly obscured when Boyd crawls in front of a car, and Chipperfield fires the last of nine shots at him. The fatal bullet struck Boyd in the head.

So the wing nut is on the ground and the cop shoots him 9 times?

http://o.canada.com/2012/09/14/prince-george-police-shooting-victim-was-veteran-suffering-from-ptsd/

Matters said her brother may have been suicidal at times, but his doctor never considered him a threat to anyone, and she openly questioned what she called the RCMP’s excessive use of force.

“Why did an emergency task force come onto private property? They shot a man on his own property who was unarmed,” she said.

Unarmed and a military veteran suffering from PTSD……

The vast majority of RCMP officers receive several weeks of firearms training at Depot, then a week’s worth prior to their annual qualifications……….Other Municipal Forces are +/- this total usually a week or so………….I recreationally shoot with current and retired LEOs, and some are damn good, but the majority are no better then a casual sport shooter……………..

One caveat to add, the one federal agency that gives their members weekly target practice is Corrections Canada………they lease my clubs range once a week (and leave the place a pigsty)

Now in most States, prior to receiving a CCW permit, the applicant has to attended a safety course put on by the local Sheriff’s (or municipal) department…………..And it can be reasoned, that most people that feel the need for a CCW permit, shoot more then one week a year.

What happens when police officers show up to a gun battle and cannot determine who is who and as a result have to fight all the armed people?

Has that ever happened? I would assume the same thing that happens when they arrive and there's plain clothes officers on scene....

[WIP]

Don't look now, but Newtown residents...the people who have been the most affected by the lack of sane and effective gun control in the U.S. were leading the gun control march on Washington yesterday.

About 100 residents from Newtown, where a gunman killed 20 first-graders and six teachers, traveled to Washington together, organizers said.

Participant Kara Baekey from nearby Norwalk, Conn., said that when she heard about the Newtown shooting, she immediately thought of her two young children. She said she decided she must take action, and that’s why she traveled to Washington for the march.

“I wanted to make sure this never happens at my kids’ school or any other school,” Baekey said. “It just can’t happen again.”

[bush_cheney2004]

“I wanted to make sure this never happens at my kids’ school or any other school,” Baekey said. “It just can’t happen again.”

It will happen again.....go home and bury your children.....just like thousands of other families with children killed by guns that never get much attention from liberals in Canada or the USA.

Edited January 27, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

Don't look now, but Newtown residents...the people who have been the most affected by the lack of sane and effective gun control in the U.S. were leading the gun control march on Washington yesterday.

About 100 residents from Newtown, where a gunman killed 20 first-graders and six teachers, traveled to Washington together, organizers said.

Participant Kara Baekey from nearby Norwalk, Conn., said that when she heard about the Newtown shooting, she immediately thought of her two young children. She said she decided she must take action, and that’s why she traveled to Washington for the march.

“I wanted to make sure this never happens at my kids’ school or any other school,” Baekey said. “It just can’t happen again.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/newtown-residents-to-join-pastors-parents-in-march-for-gun-control-on-national-mall-in-dc/2013/01/26/e10bedfa-678e-11e2-83c7-38d5fac94235_story.html

Thousands of people, many holding signs with names of gun violence victims and messages such as “Ban Assault Weapons Now,” joined a rally for gun control on Saturday, marching from the Capitol to the Washington Monument.

http://westhartford.patch.com/articles/connecticut-gun-supplies-running-low-as-weapon-sales-soar-db9241b2

Connecticut gun stores sold more than 19,400 firearms last month, an increase of 71 percent from the previous year, and guns are selling so fast in this state that some retailers are reporting dwindling supplies and waiting lists for weapons,according to a report in the Hartford Courant.

Meanwhile:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/hit_us_with_your_best_shot_andy_5rxZg0gYBJJhkLBtiTPMfJ

Assault-rifle owners statewide are organizing a mass boycott of Gov. Cuomo’s new law mandating they register their weapons, daring officials to “come and take it away,” The Post has learned.

“Many of these assault-rifle owners aren’t going to register; we realize that,’’ said a Cuomo-administration source who added that officials expect “widespread violations’’ of the new law. Owners who refuse to register could face a class-A misdemeanor — punishable by up to a year in prison.

And what you'll start seeing more of as a result:

[Guest American Woman]

Don't look now, but Newtown residents...the people who have been the most affected by the lack of sane and effective gun control in the U.S. were leading the gun control march on Washington yesterday.

The families of the murder victims in Montreal have been calling for the ban of the Ruger mini-14, to no avail. It's not even a restricted fire arm in Canada.

Edited January 27, 2013 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

The families of the murder victims in Montreal have been calling for the ban of the Ruger mini-14, to no avail. It's not even a restricted fire arm in Canada.

Indeed....a quick visit to Frontier Firearms in Canada finds all manner of "assault rifle" clones, like this Norinco (China):

http://frontierfirearms.ca/index.php/firearms/black-rifles/norinco-cq-223-rem-14-5-restricted.html

[Guest Derek L]

Indeed....a quick visit to Frontier Firearms in Canada finds all manner of "assault rifle" clones, like this Norinco (China):

http://frontierfirea...restricted.html

They're junk.......A friend bought one not to long ago……….First rifle I’ve ever fired with a full choke

[bush_cheney2004]

They're junk.......A friend bought one not to long ago……….First rifle I’ve ever fired with a full choke

I can easily believe that....Norinco may have better luck with an AK clone ! Hell, I don't even like the Bushmaster....the Colt is a better quality firearm.

[Guest Derek L]

I can easily believe that....Norinco may have better luck with an AK clone ! Hell, I don't even like the Bushmaster....the Colt is a better quality firearm.

Same friend also has a Chinese SKS-D………Your standard SKS, but accepts AK-47 mags……..It can hit a barn ish……….

I agree about Colts (and Armalites) though……….I’ll fully admit to being a “snob”………..Was looking at a Remington R-15 (made in probably the same factory as Bushmaster) and just couldn’t pull the trigger……The AR-15 & M-4s available it seems up here are either Remingtons or Norks (We too are having a run on them)……..I’ll pass until I find a Colt HBAR with fixed rear sight/handle and classic stock……..Until then, quite content with my Springfield M1A, Italian princess (MR1) and the Ruger Minis…..

[jbg]

The issue is events such as the Columbine shooting where the officers show up while the shooting is in progress and this will even up the odds. As far as arming people in order to deal with such threats I personally would not trust many people with a gun, someone opens fire and others join in means that there is all that much chance for a free for all to happen.

Agreed. Also police officers tend to be more educated and better trained than security guards with guns.

[Guest Derek L]

Agreed. Also police officers tend to be more educated and better trained than security guards with guns.

I asked Sigs for an example.........Can you cite recent incident(s) that turned into a CCW free for all?

As to training or education, that too is not necessarily so………..With a quick search, here’s the firearms training for BC Sheriffs:

http://www.jibc.ca/course/SRT132

56 hours of classroom and range training to allow a Peace Officer ,as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada, the ability to carry a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm (both my wife and I own the exact same firearm) on the streets of Canada, and if required, to use it.

And here, from my own Gun Club, the course that allows Armoured car guards to carry a modern semi-auto handgun for their self protection………

http://www.silvercore.ca/courses/armoured-car-guard-federal-use-of-force

So where is this magical barrier that defines what makes a police officer or armoured car guard more suited to be armed in public over a citizen with a safety course of the same magnitude as said police officers and armoured car guards?

[Guest Derek L]

And to add, for the RCMP:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/depot/ctp-pfc/index-eng.htm#ftu-gft

Length: 64 hours

The Firearms curriculum covers handling firearms with safety and precision for public and police safety within the provisions of law and policy. Cadets must gain competency with the Force issued semi-automatic 9 mm pistol and the 12 gauge pump action shotgun. Firearms training simulators are also utilised to provide cadets with training specific to decision making in situations where firearms use may be warranted. Safe practices, accuracy and judgement making applying the RCMP Incident Management Intervention Model are all assessed.

[punked]

Really. The NRA hates background checks? Then perhaps you could try explaining this: NRA President: Group Supportive Of Tighter Background Checks

Looks like only one of us was dumb enough to fall for that one eh?

"When it comes to the issue of background checks, let’s be honest – background checks will never be 'universal' – because criminals will never submit to them," LaPierre's testimony reads.

LaPierre will say the NRA is ready to pushback on gun control advocates calling for new legislation after Newtown.

YES THE NRA IS AGAINST BACKGROUND CHECKS!!!!

http://livewire.talk...of-time?ref=fpb

Edited January 29, 2013 by punked

[GostHacked]

Someone was talking about cops being trained properly and that they show restraint.

http://usnews.nbcnew...igh-school?lite

And these are just dogs who posed no threat to them in the first place.

Edited January 29, 2013 by GostHacked

[Guest American Woman]

Looks like only one of us was dumb enough to fall for that one eh?

YES THE NRA IS AGAINST BACKGROUND CHECKS!!!!

Ummmm. No. "Background checks" and "universal background checks" are not synonymous. What I said is correct, while what you claim is incorrect.

National Rifle Association President David Keene: "Background checks are generally a good thing." http://www.cnn.com/2...ecks/index.html

[Guest Derek L]

Ummmm. No. "Background checks" and "universal background checks" are not synonymous. What I said is correct, while what you claim is incorrect.

National Rifle Association President David Keene: "Background checks are generally a good thing." http://www.cnn.com/2...ecks/index.html

Exactly:

http://www.cnn.com/2...ecks/index.html

Keene did say he favored background checks to block people who may be mentally ill or potentially violent from buying guns.

But federal law already requires that, Nichols said.

One problem with the systems is that many states don't report the names of people who've been legally labeled dangerously mentally ill.

Improving the accuracy and availability of information about these people, Keene said, is one possible area for agreement. He suggested "tightening up on putting information in the database. It's school security. It's beefing up the way we deal with the mentally ill."

Nichols said "huge gaps" exist in the database, which is called the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS. For example, the Virginia Tech shooter, who killed 33 people and himself in 2007, had passed two background checks because Virginia didn't submit his mentally ill status to the database, Nichols said.

Almost 1.8 million applications were denied, the agency said.

On this matter, both sides are in agreement.

Said Keene: "Background checks are generally a good thing."

Added Nichols: "Background checks have a huge deterrent effect. People who are ineligible to buy a gun are unlikely to try if they know they are going to be subjected to a background check."

From the both the NRA and Law center to prevent gun violence.....

Edited January 30, 2013 by Derek L

[punked]

More from the NRA about how only one person in this thread was dumb enough to buy into their background check nonsense.

Again they don't support background checks it is obvious that someone around here is oblivious.

[Guest Derek L]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/55742445-68/shooting-atlanta-police-says.html.csp

Armed guard disarmed teen in Atlanta school shooting, says police chief

Atlanta • A student opened fire at his middle school Thursday afternoon, wounding a 14-year-old in the neck before an armed officer working at the school was able to get the gun away, police said.

Multiple shots were fired in the courtyard of Price Middle School just south of downtown around 1:50 p.m. and the one boy was hit, Atlanta Police Chief George Turner said. In the aftermath, a teacher received minor cuts, he said.......

.......The armed resource officer who took the gun away was off-duty and at the school, but police didn’t release details on him or whether he is regularly at Price. Since 20 children and six adults were shot to death at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut in December, calls for armed officers in every school have resonated across the country.

But I thought armed "good guys" in schools was a bad thing.......

And this, from Vice President Biden:

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=BDF76CF8-2C35-4654-9F68-DCB35A6F1F39

Joe Biden: Gun laws offer no guarantees

Vice President Joe Biden conceded on Thursday that gun regulations aren’t going to end every murder or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting, but argued changes are needed to save lives.

“Nothing we’re going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that we will bring gun deaths down to a thousand a year from what we’re at now,” Biden told reporters after meeting with Senate Democrats in the Capitol. “But there are things that we can do demonstrably can do that have virtually zero impact on your Second Amendment right to own a weapon for both self defense and recreation that can save some lives.”

The VP shooting from the hip again?

Perhaps it’s time to apply Occam's Razor:

http://gunowners.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/gun-control-gets-cut-down-by-occams-razor/

Ahh Joe Biden:

[punked]

So just to point out the details of your article are laking but from what I read Derek. The boy showed up at the school to shoot someone, they shoot someone and teacher (could have shot up the rest of the school but they only had one target) they then walked out of the school at which time the guard intervened. So the guard didn't stop anything at all the planned shooting took place. How does this strengthen your argument at all? Do you read what you post?

BTW who said armed guards were bad? We said they wouldn't stop or prevent shootings and they don't which is what your example proves. So what is their function?

Edited February 2, 2013 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

So just to point out the details of your article are laking but from what I read Derek. The boy showed up at the school to shoot someone, they shoot someone and teacher (could have shot up the rest of the school but they only had one target) they then walked out of the school at which time the guard intervened. So the guard didn't stop anything at all the planned shooting took place. How does this strengthen your argument at all? Do you read what you post?

After an armed good guy intervened, the violence stopped….simple concept really.

[The_Squid]

So just to point out the details of your article are laking but from what I read Derek. The boy showed up at the school to shoot someone, they shoot someone and teacher (could have shot up the rest of the school but they only had one target) they then walked out of the school at which time the guard intervened. So the guard didn't stop anything at all the planned shooting took place. How does this strengthen your argument at all? Do you read what you post?

BTW who said armed guards were bad? We said they wouldn't stop or prevent shootings and they don't which is what your example proves. So what is their function?

But... But... The good guy had a GUN! I'll bet Derek posts a picture of it soon....

[punked]

After an armed good guy intervened, the violence stopped….simple concept really.

Not what the police say. The police the violence stopped after the kid shot the other kid he was targeting. That is what the police say maybe you want to call them liars.