Mass shooting

[Guest Derek L]

So, you really are that determined to keep your guns that you would have the state lock up everyone that is mentally ill for simply being mentally ill?

You clearly need help.

I never said that.....just those that pose a risk to themselves or others.........but hey, we can have the courts force them to take their meds if you like.....

[eyeball]

How well are the courts doing at mandating treatment for those living on the streets inflicted with mental illness…..

Just fine in the case of my associate's son's.

Not everyone, just those wishing to purchase a gun legally…….we do it in Canada……………As for current gun owners, the same applies, every current Canadian that owns guns legally has been through the same process…

What about when gun owners or members of their households become ill after the process?

……If the ~200 gun homicides, and ~1000-1500 gun suicides committed every year in Canada are to much for society to bear, increase (as I’ve suggested) the standards and screening associated with Canadian gun licensing………….Since you, not a gun owner, wouldn’t be effected, what do you care about privacy concerns of legal gun owners in this regard?

I'm more concerned about the privacy concerns of the mentally ill. Their right to privacy should, in my opinion, trump the right of gun owners to keep their guns at home.

And of those ~200 gun homicides committed a year in Canada, how many are done by mentally ill legal gun owners.

I don't know offhand but I'll bet it's higher than you think and don't forget nearly 80% of all firearm deaths in Canada are suicides. In any case the growing numbers of mass shooter of the type being discussed all appear to have been suffering from mental illness and apparently had easy access to lots of guns.

Hey, you’re the one apparently concerned about shootings committed by the mentally ill in Canada, so much so, that even though total gun homicides don’t even approach 1% of the total numbers of legal gun owners here, you wish to place draconian restrictions on people’s property…………

Draconian? You mean, compared to a mental health database?

Of the ~200 gun homicides committed a year in Canada, how many are done by those suffering mental illness?

Or of the ~11000 gun homicides committed a year in the United States, how many are done by those suffering mental illness, as opposed to, like here, their roles associated with the criminalization of drugs?

I don't know. How many mass shootings at schools were done by perfectly sane people?

If the numbers are a low percentage when compared to drug related crimes, what are you worried about?

I'm worried about the never-ending conflation of crime with mental illness.

Legalize drugs and have the courts force the mentally ill to take their Scooby Snacks…………There you go, drastic decrease in gun deaths…..problem solved.

I doubt it, especially if your prescription was delivered with similar cynical conviction.

Edited January 20, 2013 by eyeball

[jbg]

It's not as if his mother had tried to have him locked up in a mental hospital - and failed. As I've pointed out before, people who used to be locked away in mental hospitals are now mainstreamed into society, so that's going to put society at greater risk; but locking up every potentially dangerous person isn't good, either.

Again it's not all or nothing. There should be a balance.

Now, it is too hard to lock up people who are truly dangerous.

[Guest Derek L]

Just fine in the case of my associate's son's.

......but not in the cases of those of the lower East side....

What about when gun owners or members of their households become ill after the process?

Have either of your two concerns been proven to be a problem in Canada? Perhaps, of those ~200 homicides, we should determine how many have been committed by a mentally ill person…..

I'm more concerned about the privacy concerns of the mentally ill. Their right to privacy should, in my opinion, trump the right of gun owners to keep their guns at home.

But here, the mentally ill’s records aren’t checked unless they’re applying for a licence……

I don't know offhand but I'll bet it's higher than you think and don't forget nearly 80% of all firearm deaths in Canada are suicides. In any case the growing numbers of mass shooter of the type being discussed all appear to have been suffering from mental illness and apparently had easy access to lots of guns.

And suicides honestly don’t concern me if no one else is physically hurt…….People have been doing themselves in for tens of thousands of years…….

And do you have evidence to suggest that “mass shootings” are on the rise in Canada? Or the States for that mater?

Draconian? You mean, compared to a mental health database?

We already have one:

http://www.cihi.ca/cihi-ext-portal/internet/en/document/types+of+care/specialized+services/mental+health+and+addictions/services_mhdb

As I said, it would only be accessed by those applying for a firearms licence.

I doubt it, especially if your prescription was delivered with similar cynical conviction.

Didn’t you say the courts can force people to take their medication?

[eyeball]

......but not in the cases of those of the lower East side....

Why not?

Have either of your two concerns been proven to be a problem in Canada? Perhaps, of those ~200 homicides, we should determine how many have been committed by a mentally ill person…..

It just happened in Sandy Hook.

But here, the mentally ill’s records aren’t checked unless they’re applying for a licence……

That would change if the NRA had it's way. They'd be in a database before they even thought of applying. And what about those who lose their minds after they have their licence?

And suicides honestly don’t concern me if no one else is physically hurt…….People have been doing themselves in for tens of thousands of years…….

I hear you, your humanity is now as legendary as your narrow self-interests.

And do you have evidence to suggest that “mass shootings” are on the rise in Canada? Or the States for that mater?

Of the type under discussion these days? You're kidding right?

We already have one:

http://www.cihi.ca/c...s/services_mhdb

As I said, it would only be accessed by those applying for a firearms licence.

Wonderful. Now please tell me how this prevents or weeds out gun owners who go crazy after they've acquired their guns and tell me how this prevents or weeds out members of the gun owner's household who go crazy after they've acquired their guns.

Didn’t you say the courts can force people to take their medication?

Yes I did.

[Guest Derek L]

[/size]

Why not?

Look at the number of mentally ill people living on the streets…….

It just happened in Sandy Hook.

As I said, in Canada.........Big difference between the laws here and in the States………..

If you decided you wanted to buy a Bushmaster AR-15 (Same gun used in the shooting) today, after all the background checks, the RCMP interview with your spouse, the RCMP interviews with two other references, the mandatory safety course, you might get your gun licence in late spring or early summer, then you have to join a range and provide the necessary paperwork confirming as much to the RCMP, then after a month or so, you’ll receive your Authorization to Transport, then you go to the local gun store and purchase your AR-15, then wait for the British Columbia Chief Firearms Officer to approve the transfer, probably another 1-2 months…….So you might have said gun by the Fall or Winter of this year…………Now in the States, you walk into the Wal-Mart, have a background check and depending on the State, at most wait a couple of days to take home your rifle…..

And of course, by law, in Canada, your AR-15 must be stored within a safe with a trigger lock put on it, and nobody else in your family (unless they too have a licence) are allowed access to it……..

Like I said, big difference between Canada and the States on who can legally purchase a firearm.

That would change if the NRA had it's way. They'd be in a database before they even thought of applying. And what about those who lose their minds after they have their licence?

As I said, is that problem with our current system?

I hear you, your humanity is now as legendary as your narrow self-interests.

But is suicide not humane, or better put, if someone desires to end their life, should we stop them?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully supportive of mechanisms that a depressed person can access prior, be it medical treatment, councillors, hotlines, clergy and family & friends, but if someone is determined that they no longer desire to carry on, who am I to stop them?

Of the type under discussion these days? You're kidding right?

No, is there evidence to suggest that they are on the rise? In both Canada and the United States gun homicides/violence have been dropping for decades, all the while gun ownership & sales have been increasing in both countries.

Wonderful. Now please tell me how this prevents or weeds out gun owners who go crazy after they've acquired their guns and tell me how this prevents or weeds out members of the gun owner's household who go crazy after they've acquired their guns.

To the first, aside from doctors, family and friends notifying the CFC, it wouldn’t……….In the case of other members of the household, legally only the gun owner (or licensed family members ) can have access to the firearms………But like I said above, is their any evidence to suggest, that of Canada’s ~200 annual gun homicides, a large and/or growing percentage align with the example you purport?

[eyeball]

Look at the number of mentally ill people living on the streets…….

I know, it's the shits. In the meantime harm-reduction works better than the courts, the courts are there if needs be but only in the worse cases that other strategies can't deal with. The population of the LES is not fixed or unchanging, as I said people from elsewhere go there to escape and if anything, I suspect many from small towns and rural areas go on to find the help that's so often absent where they come from. My own little town for example said no an assisted living facility for the mentally ill in reaction to a rather small but vocal neighbourhood committee that pleaded nothing but concern and compassion whilst speaking in public while warning of needles in the streets and weirdos in the bushes when privately collecting signatures. Such is the way of stigma.

Speaking of which, the people of the LES are in fact way more often the victims of violence than the perpetrators of it and I can't think of anyone less likely to go on a shooting rampage.

As I said, in Canada.........Big difference between the laws here and in the States………..

No kidding. There also seems to be a Big difference in the social and cultural forces shaping the psychoses of people who go on rampages down there.

As I said, is that problem with our current system?

In addition to 200 gun homicides there's also your 800 - 1000 or so suicides per year.

But is suicide not humane, or better put, if someone desires to end their life, should we stop them?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully supportive of mechanisms that a depressed person can access prior, be it medical treatment, councillors, hotlines, clergy and family & friends,

I'm trying not to but...

but if someone is determined that they no longer desire to carry on, who am I to stop them?

.....

No, is there evidence to suggest that they are on the rise? In both Canada and the United States gun homicides/violence have been dropping for decades, all the while gun ownership & sales have been increasing in both countries.

Shooting sprees are on the rise and probably won't be subsiding any time soon.

http://www.huffingto..._n_2302590.html

To the first, aside from doctors, family and friends notifying the CFC, it wouldn’t……….In the case of other members of the household, legally only the gun owner (or licensed family members ) can have access to the firearms………But like I said above, is their any evidence to suggest, that of Canada’s ~200 annual gun homicides, a large and/or growing percentage align with the example you purport?

This study suggests that many family members living in households in which there are demented patients do not take appropriate action to remove or unload firearms in their households, regardless of the severity of dementia, behavioral disturbance, or depression. These findings suggest that clinicians need to ask families specifically about the presence of firearms and advocate for their removal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10522950

In addition to the above there are other scholarly articles which raise questions about guns and dementia.

Of course there is also evidence that gun control actually yields results.

Conclusions: Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides. Total homicide rates followed the same pattern. Removing large numbers of rapid-firing firearms from civilians may be an effective way of reducing mass shootings, firearm homicides and firearm suicides.

http://injuryprevent.../12/6/365.short

Go figure.

[Guest Derek L]

No kidding. There also seems to be a Big difference in the social and cultural forces shaping the psychoses of people who go on rampages down there.

In addition to 200 gun homicides there's also your 800 - 1000 or so suicides per year.

Then why do they happen there and not here to the same extent? Canadian gun owners can legally purchase nearly every type of gun an American gun owner can…………..What causes this discrepancy? Why are our handguns and AR-15 less deadly than Americans?

I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it a thousand times………..Gun Licensing.

In addition to the above there are other scholarly articles which raise questions about guns and dementia.

Of course there is also evidence that gun control actually yields results.

Yet from your link:

How much of an increase is subject to debate. According to FBI statistics, the trend is inching upward. People killed in clusters of four or more averaged 163 annually between 2006 and 2008, just two more than back in the 1980s.

So the "mass shootings" have attributed to an increasse to two more people being killed a year

But:

One-on-one gun homicides have dropped more than 40 percent since 1980, according to 2010 FBI crime data. The firearm homicide rate sank from 10,000 in 2005 to 8,776 in 2010.

Versus down in Oz

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

• Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
  

And to add, over the same period of time, Canada’s homicide rate has also declined…………So Australian, Canadian and American homicide rates have all been decreasing………….Canada and the United States haven’t banned semi-autos and the Americans rate of decrease mirrors that of the Australians who have……….

What does that tell us? Gun Homicides have been decreasing in these three nations, despite what they do or don’t do regarding private ownership of firearms…….

Now with that all being said, Canada and Australia, when compared to the United States, have more then half the rates of gun homicides…………..And what might one key difference be? Like Canada, Australians are also required to have firearms licences and keep their firearms safely stored………….Even in little tiny New Zealand, a person can own hand guns, semi-autos etc, just like the Americans, but the Kiwis also share similar rates of firearms homicides as Canada and Australia…………Surprise, Surprise, in New Zealand you also have to obtain a licence…………see a trend here?

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/services/firearms/permits/firearms_permits

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/index-eng.htm

[Guest Derek L]

Just wanted to add............At this gun store in Christchurch New Zealand, one can purchase a Bushmaster AR-15 with silencer........You can't even do that in some US States, let alone Canada:

http://www.guncity.co.nz/223-bushmaster-carbon-ar15-scope-silencer-package-xidp244149.html

And in Canada, don't even think about an AK-47, let alone one in gold plate:

http://www.guncity.co.nz/7.62x39-russian-ak47-gold-plated-xidp211431.html

Don't the Kiwis know that guns are bad?

[eyeball]

Then why do they happen there and not here to the same extent? Canadian gun owners can legally purchase nearly every type of gun an American gun owner can…………..What causes this discrepancy? Why are our handguns and AR-15 less deadly than Americans?

I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it a thousand times………..Gun Licensing.

There's got to be more to it than that. I can't see why licencing would have much bearing on why Americans kill more Americans than Canadians kill other Canadians.

What does that tell us? Gun Homicides have been decreasing in these three nations, despite what they do or don’t do regarding private ownership of firearms…….

Yah...you've convinced me. I better get me some guns.

Edited January 21, 2013 by eyeball

[Guest Derek L]

There's got to be more to it than that. I can't see why licencing would have much bearing on why Americans kill more Americans than Canadians kill other Canadians.

Well certainly the measures in place in the said nations licensing programs for legal gun owners are able to weed out a great many people that shouldn’t have firearms…………As I said in another thread, I’d also attribute much of the violence in each nation to the illicit drug trade……….Like I’ve alluded to earlier, or even if you look at the prohibition of alcohol, making a human vice illegal, well also very profitable, is welcoming in violence………..

Just look at the handful of shootings recently in BC………All attributed to organize crime……..you make the drugs that these gangs are selling legal, and there goes their reason of being…….

Yah...you've convinced me. I better get me some guns.

I honestly don’t care if you do or don‘t, but clearly I’d be bothered if you wanted to and couldn’t.

Getting a gun won’t turn you into a violent person, and the sporting aspects like hunting can be just as enjoyable as sports fishing……………

[eyeball]

I'll have to take your word for it, I've never gone sport fishing.

Good luck with ending the prohibition of drugs. That seems about as unlikely to happen as gun control.

[GostHacked]

I'll have to take your word for it, I've never gone sport fishing.

Good luck with ending the prohibition of drugs. That seems about as unlikely to happen as gun control.

Prohibition works!! Ask the criminals.

[cybercoma]

Well this is interesting...

More Americans have died from guns since 1968 than they have from wars since the Revolution.

[Guest Derek L]

Well this is interesting...

More Americans have died from guns since 1968 than they have from wars since the Revolution.

Yeah, because the majority of said gun deaths are suicide………….

[Guest Derek L]

Here's something else interesting:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

In 2011 323 People were murdered by rifles (including AR-15s) in the United States…………Well 496 were murdered by blunt objects like hammers and bats………..

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah, because the majority of said gun deaths are suicide………….

Yep, and on that note, this is interesting: "Across the world, there are more deaths caused by suicide than from murder, war, and accidents combined."

[GostHacked]

Yep, and on that note, this is interesting: "Across the world, there are more deaths caused by suicide than from murder, war, and accidents combined."

More American soldiers (active duty) are dying from suicide than from action in theater.

[Guest American Woman]

More American soldiers (active duty) are dying from suicide than from action in theater.

The same is true in Canada.

[GostHacked]

The same is true in Canada.

Try to stay on topic Bush_Cheney.

[bush_cheney2004]

More American soldiers died in Europe during WW1 than Canadian soldiers, despite joining the war in its last year (1917).

More fun facts coming soon !

Edited January 21, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

.

Edited January 21, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest Derek L]

Clearly we have to ban guns and Ozzy

Edited January 21, 2013 by Derek L

[GostHacked]

So this is how you respond when you've got nothing of intelligence to say and can't refute what's been said?

Not then point BC. oh crap .. this was AW ... somehow I read it in the style of BC, how did I ever come to that conclusion.

Sorry the facts don't sit well with you, but my response is very much on topic.

No it is not on topic. And all other chatter in this thread related to Canadians and firearms are also not on topic.

[Canuckistani]

oh, let them have their fun. The US is in such a sad state they just have to point out every instance where Canada does it toooooo.