betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 Pennsylvania state representative Mike Fleck just came out of the closet last week. This was a risky thing for him to do as a Republican representing the most conservative district in the state. Here are some comments he made about his experiences in trying to come to grips with same-sex attraction, reconcile his faith with his sexuality, and attempting to "cure" it through therapy. He continued that during his 20s, he firmly believed what he’s been taught, that homosexuality was a choice and so never felt in great conflict because he’d learned to suppress his feelings. “I wanted to live a ‘normal’ life and raise a family,” Fleck said. “I also believed that by marrying, I was fulfilling God’s will and I thought my same-sex attraction would simply go away. (...) While his professional dreams were becoming reality, Fleck said he was also weathering personal battles, namely his same-sex attraction which, contrary to all he believed and was taught, remained. “So I just prayed harder and put it in God’s hands,” he said, adding that as one of the county’s most visible couples, the unresolved feelings and pressure of public scrutiny took its toll and Fleck opted for therapy. “I sought out treatment from a Christian counselor, but when that didn’t work out, I engaged a secular therapist who told me point blank that I was gay and that I was too caught up in being the perfect Christian rather than actually being authentic and honest,” Fleck said. He said the hardest part of the process has been reconciling his faith with his sexuality. “Through years of counseling, I’ve met a lot of gay Christians who have tried hard to change their God-given sexual orientation, but at the end of the day, I know of none who’ve been successful,” he said. “They’ve only succeeded at repressing their identity, only to have it reappear time and time again and always wreaking havoc not only on themselves, but especially on their family.” Fleck said once he was able to be honest with himself, he could finally be honest with others, because no one in his life had any clue about his personal struggle, not even his wife. “My wife and I became closer than ever before but it was bittersweet as we both concluded that the marriage was over,” he said. Fleck moved out in the summer of 2011 and his wife bought a house that fall. -k We're talking about gays who want to be straight. It's their decision. Their choice. Quote
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) If a gay person wants to have this theraphy to help him overcome his gayness, why shouldn't society respect his wish? Because the therapy is crap, doesn't work and take advantage of those in emotional state. We're talking about gays who want to be straight. It's their decision. Their choice. No, we're talking about your lack of understanding regarding gays Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) To compare gays and paedophiles is ridiculous, if you'll excuse me saying so. Both already have a sexual orientation. One is sexually attracted to children. Sexual orientation is not the same as sexual attraction. What, you think pedophiles are not sexually attracted to kids???? If you believe that one can be born gay....why is it hard to think that one can also be born a pedophile? In ancient days, and in some cultures, aren't there child brides? If it's acceptable and considered normal in a culture for a 12 year old to have sex - what's a few less years, like 11 or 10? Why is it ridiculous to compare the two when we talk about theraphy/rehabilitation??? I wanted to compare them to alcoholism....but it isn't exactly the same, whereas both homosexuality and pedophilia are both sexual orientation. That said, society should be supportive of gays who want to be heterosexuals. Therapy should be available to help them come to terms with their sexuality if they feel that they can't do so given society's prejudices. At least we agree on that. Btw, it is pure speculation to think that all gays who want to become straight do so because they're pressured by society. Like I said....we do not know the story behind every individual. For all you know, someone was truly confused and messed up when they were young, and now are suffering for it. Edited December 10, 2012 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 Should that therapy exist? If someone is bisexual, that's one thing, but if they're gay, they shouldn't really try not to be. It's what they are. Betsy, apparently, is an uninformed bigot. I guess you can't deal with an adult discussion. I don't want to be bothered by immature ignorants....so I'll put you on ignore. Quote
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) What, you think pedophiles are not sexually attracted to kids???? Don't play dumb, read the post carefully. but it isn't exactly the same, whereas both homosexuality and pedophilia are both sexual orientation. Sexual orientation ARE NOT THE SAME as sexual attraction. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, pedophilia is a sexual attraction. Btw, it is pure speculation to think that gays who want to become straigyt do so because they're pressured by society. It not pure speculation, its the reality of it. Why do you think there are people in the closest? Uh? Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 I guess you can't deal with an adult discussion. I don't want to be bothered by immature ignorants....so I'll put you on ignore. Not sure if you can put yourself on ignore Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
jbg Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 Gays who want to go straight should be supported - since obviously, that's what they want. Furthermore, not all gays were born gay - IF that were even to be considered a conclusive fact that one is born gay! Your views are strictly politically incorrect. Even though accepting the politically correct point of view worked quite well in Sodom, Gomorrah or both. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) You can't "cure" a pedophile, short of artificial means like hormone therapy or castration. Even then that's no sure thing. Same as you can't "cure" a homosexual, a bisexual, or a heterosexual. Save weird chemical intervention, pedophiles will always be sexually attracted to kids, like you'll be attracted to whoever or whatever you like. The only thing a pedophile can control, same as a heterosexual pr homosexual or bisexual, is to act or not act on his/her natural desires. Feels like I've rattled a tree of monkeys! Calm down, will you. It was not me who instigated getting these gays rehabilitated. I was reacting to this news article! Theraphy "can make gays heterosexuals" Of 200 homosexuals and lesbians given the treatment, 78 per cent of males and 95 per cent of females reported a change in their sexuality. The findings will reignite the debate over what determines sexuality, as they contradict the widespread view that it is 'hardwired' at birth. Gay rights groups were outraged by the study, claiming it was flawed and treated homosexuality as an illness. However, it is given more credence by the pedigree of the man who led it. Psychiatrist Robert Spitzer is the man who helped have homosexuality removed from the American Psychiatric Association's list of mental illnesses in 1973. He insisted his study was valid and said some gays 'bothered' by their homosexuality wanted to be heterosexual and had a right to such treatment. Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz2EVMnPsbw Do you understand what's reported in that article? Read again. I know....I know....you guys don't like big fonts. But this is one of those instances when huge fonts are required....to get you guys stop from hyperventilating! I even got called a "bigot" for posting this thread and giving my views - in reaction to this article. I highlighted and fonted the CREDENTIAL of the psychiatrist! Who has credibility as to knowledge about this thing Moonlihgt - you, or this psychiatrist??? You're responding like as if you're in denial? Most of the responses here were done knee-jerk....some even brought in religion!!! Edited December 10, 2012 by betsy Quote
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 I highlighted and fonted the CREDENTIAL of the psychiatrist! From 1973 Times has changed betsy, try the 21st century Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
jbg Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 From 1973 Times has changed betsy, try the 21st century I still remember what I was doing for many days in 1973 like it was yesterday. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 US judge blocks California's 'gay cure' for children ban District judge exempts three therapists from state's ban on practicing gay conversion therapy 04 December 2012 | By Matthew Jenkin A US federal judge has blocked California's plans to ban 'gay cure’ therapy for minors. But despite the World Health Organization calling the practice ‘dangerous and abusive’, US District Court Judge William Shubb ruled yesterday (3 December) that the First Amendment rights of psychiatrists, psychologists and other mental health professionals outweigh the risks associated with the therapy. The judge also dismissed claims by California lawmakers that gay conversion therapy can lead to depression and suicide, saying it was based on 'questionable science'. However, Shubb's ruling will only exempt the three plaintiff's who brought the lawsuit - psychiatrist Anthony Duk, marriage and family therapist Donald Welch and Aaron Bitzer, a trainee counsellor specialising in helping people who are unhappy about their sexuality. Their exemptions are only temporary and the judge will now look to hold a trial to review the case. But according to Sky News, the judge expects the law to be eventually thrown out as unconstitutional. http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/us-judge-blocks-californias-gay-cure-children-ban041212 Quote
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Their exemptions are only temporary and the judge will now look to hold a trial to review the case. I guess the judges doesn't care about the safety and health of children. In no way does the banning of conversion therapy violates the therapists first amendment, that is complete bullcrap. Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 Out of curiousity, I searched for sites for ex-gays, and I found this Canadian site: http://www.peoplecanchange.com/ From their faq: Is Change Really Possible? Absolutely! We testify from our own personal experience that we have experienced profound change in our sexual identity, behavior, interests and desires -- change that has brought us great peace and satisfaction. (See: Our Stories) Evidence of Change Anecdotal evidence that change is possible is abundant. First-person testimonials abound on the Internet, at recovery conferences and in reparative literature. Click here for testimonies on other websites. But the evidence is much more than anecdotal. In more than 50 years of research, including 48 studies we will reference here, there are data and published accounts documenting easily more than 3,000 cases of change from homosexual to heterosexual attraction, identity and functioning. "Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change" Project New Direction Ministries in Toronto, Canada, has collected and critiqued 31 clinical research studies, individual case studies and surveys on homosexuality and the possibility of change published in books or academic journals between 1952 and 2003. The reviewers looked for reported changes, and supporting evidence for changes, in behavior, attractions, fantasy and self-identification by the subjects of the various studies and surveys. On their Web page, they summarize the collective results of 28 of the studies, and discuss the other three separately. More... Adults can make their own decision, after all it is the gay person that's living his life. I don't see anything wrong about this. Quote
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) deleted. double posting Edited December 10, 2012 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 Your views are strictly politically incorrect. Even though accepting the politically correct point of view worked quite well in Sodom, Gomorrah or both. I don't care about political correctness! It's all about choices. By adults. That a gay's choice to want to become straight doesn't agree with you - too bad. It's not about what you think how they should live their life.... Quote
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) It's not about what you think how they should live their life.... -palm face- Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
BC_chick Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 From 1973 Times has changed betsy, try the 21st century Good one. But to put things in persepctive, we're arguing with someone who is citing references from 1973. What does that say about us? Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
jbg Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 I don't care about political correctness! It's all about choices. By adults. That a gay's choice to want to become straight doesn't agree with you - too bad. It's not about what you think how they should live their life.... Obviously you didn't bother reading my post. You should be agreeing with me. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 Perhaps too many straight people are choosing to live a gay lifestyle by choice. Let's be honest here I've seen lots of people who seem straight but lead a gay lifestyle by choice, it is happening everyday. We call them metrosexuals. Quote
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Adults can make their own decision, after all it is the gay person that's living his life. I don't see anything wrong about this. The ban is targeting minors. Adults can do whatever they want to themselves. But to put things in persepctive, we're arguing with someone who is citing references from 1973. What does that say about us? That we're arguing with someone that lack the skills of critical thinking with no hope for a rational debate. Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
jbg Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 That we're arguing with someone that lack the skills of critical thinking with no hope for a rational debate. We learned that through Bible study, err, the Bible thread. And Darwin. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 Two of them became straight again! Got married, and had kids! Their "gayness" was gone. And these two were soooo gay...you know, the shrieking girly-girl types, very loud and open! I know. They're my close friends in university! Having a heterosexual marriage with children does not mean you are not gay. Lots of gay people have normal heterosexual relationships. Gayness is mostly genetic, but genes cannot compell human behavior they can only predispose you to that behavior. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 Good one. But to put things in persepctive, we're arguing with someone who is citing references from 1973. What does that say about us? Excellent point Why does someone with less cognitive abilities, and less mastery of logic and reason than a 2nd grader get so much attention? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Sleipnir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 Excellent point Why does someone with less cognitive abilities, and less mastery of logic and reason than a 2nd grader get so much attention? Please don't insult 2nd graders.... Quote "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain
Bryan Posted December 10, 2012 Report Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) I certainly understand some people's distrust of a church-based conversion organization. I'm also seeing quite clearly that some of the posters here have argued with Betsy so often that they now have a type of oppositional defiance disorder when it comes to topics she discusses. It's really manifesting itself strongly in this thread, where we have several intelligent posters claiming that orientation cannot be changed. It's a ridiculous position, people changing is an absolute fact. I know several people who have changed (in both directions). In one case a lesbian woman I know who was as out as it comes, in a long term live-in relationship with another woman, left that woman to go and marry a man. Edited December 10, 2012 by Bryan Quote
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