F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[waldo]

Did you read your above link?

how desperate are you? I provide you two links that confirm your claim about a Dutch decision having been made are bogus - your claim is bogus! One of the links direct from the official Netherlands Parliament website... the other a few days old article from a current Dutch newspaper.

the link you choose to isolate on... is the one stating the Dutch opted not to accept the 2 F-35s they purchased for testing... while a decision hangs in balance (you know, after the Parliament voted to kill the F-35 and only an election/new coalition government managed to push a final decision out to the 'end of 2013'.

[Guest Derek L]

how desperate are you? I provide you two links that confirm your claim about a Dutch decision having been made are bogus - your claim is bogus! One of the links direct from the official Netherlands Parliament website... the other a few days old article from a current Dutch newspaper.

the link you choose to isolate on... is the one stating the Dutch opted not to accept the 2 F-35s they purchased for testing... while a decision hangs in balance (you know, after the Parliament voted to kill the F-35 and only an election/new coalition government managed to push a final decision out to the 'end of 2013'.

So the Dutch (Or Italy) have yet to leave the program.........let me know when that changes

[waldo]

But Canada is not purchasing the B & C.........But what happened with this year's price versus the price in 2012? We should see the details for the next batch sometime in July.....Then we'll factor that in also

which version of your act are you running with tonight? I guess since you still refuse to provide your own substantiation we can have you cherry-pick a single year (out of 4) and have you wildly state that supports your claim. Is there any particular "gotcha" you're holding back that says you also won't accept the FY 2014 figure that's even higher than your cherry-pick?

[Guest Derek L]

which version of your act are you running with tonight? I guess since you still refuse to provide your own substantiation we can have you cherry-pick a single year (out of 4) and have you wildly state that supports your claim. Is there any particular "gotcha" you're holding back that says you also won't accept the FY 2014 figure that's even higher than your cherry-pick?

What's wrong with your chart? It shows the F-35A cost has reduced........what's the prob?

[waldo]

So the Dutch (Or Italy) have yet to leave the program.........let me know when that changes

I will gladly accept this as your back-peddling way of acknowledging your claim the Dutch have made a final decision... is a bogus claim!

I will also gladly use this as another opportunity to reinforce the two tier-2 F-35 partners have shown significant hesitancy... significant uncertainty... in continuing with the F-35 - notwithstanding the huuuge cut-back both countries have made in their initial purchase commitment numbers (even if they ultimately continue/proceed).

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't worry...more American procurement "figures" for aircraft that Canada isn't even buying will be available soon.

[Guest Derek L]

which version of your act are you running with tonight? I guess since you still refuse to provide your own substantiation we can have you cherry-pick a single year (out of 4) and have you wildly state that supports your claim. Is there any particular "gotcha" you're holding back that says you also won't accept the FY 2014 figure that's even higher than your cherry-pick?

To add:

The 6th batch contract has not yet been signed, but will be, within the the next ~30 days.....Then we can see if the provided estimates align (or not) with the table you linked

[Guest Derek L]

I will gladly accept this as your back-peddling way of acknowledging your claim the Dutch have made a final decision... is a bogus claim!

I will also gladly use this as another opportunity to reinforce the two tier-2 F-35 partners have shown significant hesitancy... significant uncertainty... in continuing with the F-35 - notwithstanding the huuuge cut-back both countries have made in their initial purchase commitment numbers (even if they ultimately continue/proceed).

Who's left the program?

[waldo]

What's wrong with your chart? It shows the F-35A cost has reduced........what's the prob?

like I said, which version of your act are you running with tonight?

[waldo]

To add: The 6th batch contract has not yet been signed, but will be, within the the next ~30 days.....Then we can see if the provided estimates align (or not) with the table you linked

it's a nice table, hey? So... why don't you counter it... with your own substantiation? The "stuff" you said you've put up in the past... the "stuff" you refused to 'go-fetch' again.

[waldo]

Who's left the program?

I will gladly accept this as your back-peddling way of acknowledging your claim the Dutch have made a final decision... is a bogus claim!

I will also gladly use this as another opportunity to reinforce the two tier-2 F-35 partners have shown significant hesitancy... significant uncertainty... in continuing with the F-35 - notwithstanding the huuuge cut-back both countries have made in their initial purchase commitment numbers (even if they ultimately continue/proceed).

[waldo]

Don't worry...more American procurement "figures" for aircraft that Canada isn't even buying will be available soon.

one-trick pony!

[Guest Derek L]

Don't worry...more American procurement "figures" for aircraft that Canada isn't even buying will be available soon.

I don't know about that.........wait till Spring 2014.......That's when we'd, hypothetically, have to start sending the initial cadre of aircrew and maintainers down south to maintain the required drumbeat on the CF-188 replacement……..maybe even purchase a plane or two…or four.

[Guest Derek L]

like I said, which version of your act are you running with tonight?

I can read it........F-35A in 2012? F-35A in 2013? F-35A in 2014 TBD

Of course, Canada won't be purchasing LRIP aircraft

[waldo]

You seem to have misunderstood the meaning of 'clean' and 'loaded'.

nice! Given the immediate preceding posts were discussing 'stealth' how could I misinterpret your 'out of the blue' talk of sumthin else... cause, like, when talking about stealth the whole premise is one of a 'clean' projection (to help detract from detection/or 'bounce-away' detection) - versus - running the plane 'loaded' with external tanks or external armaments where (presumed) stealth is purposely dispatched. But hey, you chuckle-heads had a great guffaw, hey?

.

[waldo]

I can read it........F-35A in 2012? F-35A in 2013? F-35A in 2014 TBD

Of course, Canada won't be purchasing LRIP aircraft

pathetic! TBD!!! If Canada won't be purchasing LRIP aircraft (duh!), on what basis were you relying to make your claim that costs have come down?

so... you choose to stick with your single year cherry-pick... avoid 2014... and I guess avoid 2011 too, hey. Cause, like, uhhh.... 2013 is greater than 2011. Even your cherry-pick can't hide that! But again, just put up your own substantiation to settle this once and for all. Just put up the "stuff" you claimed to have previously provided. Is there a problem?

[waldo]

So when do we take possession of this aircraft?

GH... they can only hold back the porn for so long!!!

[Guest Derek L]

nice! Given the immediate preceding posts were discussing 'stealth' how could I misinterpret your 'out of the blue' talk of sumthin else... cause, like, when talking about stealth the whole premise is one of a 'clean' projection (to help detract from detection/or 'bounce-away' detection) - versus - running the plane 'loaded' with external tanks or external armaments where (presumed) stealth is purposely dispatched. But hey, you chuckle-heads had a great guffaw, hey?

.

That's the gist of it Waldo........And one could see why an arrangement that requires an aircraft to carry it’s munitions, ~40-60% of it’s required fuel and required targeting/ECM/reconnaissance pods externally would, when contrasted with an aircraft (like the F-35) that doesn’t, would be an inferior aircraft………To say nothing of degrading flight characteristics (drag, the shifting of the aircraft’s centers on both weight and aerodynamics, negating effects on a given aircraft’s wing loading, angle of attack etc) of said aircraft.

[Guest Derek L]

pathetic! TBD!!! If Canada won't be purchasing LRIP aircraft (duh!), on what basis were you relying to make your claim that costs have come down?

so... you choose to stick with your single year cherry-pick... avoid 2014... and I guess avoid 2011 too, hey. Cause, like, uhhh.... 2013 is greater than 2011. Even your cherry-pick can't hide that! But again, just put up your own substantiation to settle this once and for all. Just put up the "stuff" you claimed to have previously provided. Is there a problem?

2012 & 2013....you know, all the past F-35 deals we've been linking to over the last several years.........Are you now refuting the numbers from your own linked to chart?

[waldo]

I believe there is another thread created for just that kind of talk. We should really stick to the F-35 since it is the topic at hand.

So when do we take possession of the F-35?

yes - there is a dedicated thread to allow them to get their military-porn on... don't be too hard on them - it's an addiction, don't ya know!

as for possession of the F-35, that's a bouncing ball that has continued to be pushed on down the road... for a while, 2018 was being flogged. Of course, that fizzled with continued delays, a lack of testing, failed testing, etc.. Suddenly we began hearing 2020... even 2022! Of course, that was coupled with cost estimates for another maintenance/upgrade sweep of the CF-18s.

I see you got another response... why not ask the guy what the 2014 planes might be capable of... from the same guy who just finished stating Canada wouldn't be accepting any LRIP aircraft!!! Oh my!

Likely in 2017...but stay tuned for the Spring of 2014...

Of course, Canada won't be purchasing LRIP aircraft

[waldo]

That's the gist of it Waldo........And one could see why an arrangement that requires an aircraft to carry it’s munitions, ~40-60% of it’s required fuel and required targeting/ECM/reconnaissance pods externally would, when contrasted with an aircraft (like the F-35) that doesn’t, would be an inferior aircraft………To say nothing of degrading flight characteristics (drag, the shifting of the aircraft’s centers on both weight and aerodynamics, negating effects on a given aircraft’s wing loading, angle of attack etc) of said aircraft.

keep this up and not only will I reach for Winslow... I'll go for Koop too!!! Why don't you throw down another LockMart video... that was a nice touch a few posts back!

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[waldo]

2012 & 2013....you know, all the past F-35 deals we've been linking to over the last several years.........Are you now refuting the numbers from your own linked to chart?

perhaps you better clear this up. Just when is it ok to speak to LRIP numbers... and when isn't it? You seem to want to have it both ways - so long as it suits your argument/agenda purposes, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

perhaps you better clear this up. Just when is it ok to speak to LRIP numbers... and when isn't it? You seem to want to have it both ways - so long as it suits your argument/agenda purposes, hey?

I never said it isn't ok......., but provide context when relating said numbers to the eventual purchase of the F-35 by the Government of Canada.

[waldo]

Gee...haven't they heard that PCL and digital signal processing by fancy new EADS consoles will make stealth obsolete ? Those silly Russians and Chinese, what are the thinking ?

you sure are gun-ho on the stealthy thing, right? As a self-proclaimed ole' swabby... did you tear up a bit when the top dog, U.S. Navy Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert came down so hard on stealth? That must have burned, hey? You remember me providing all his quotes, right... I can find them again for you, if you'd like - let me know, hey?

[waldo]

I never said it isn't ok......., but provide context when relating said numbers to the eventual purchase of the F-35 by the Government of Canada.

context!!! You're on about... said... context! You... said?