F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[waldo]

Well get an equal deal as the USAF, once its in full production, since well be purchasing through the Pentagon as a FMS.

What the Americans pay now or are willing to pay in the future cannot be directly applied to Canada.

like I said, can you guys..... pleeeese get your talking points linked up!

[bush_cheney2004]

like I said, can you guys..... pleeeese get your talking points linked up!

Why? Your own talking points aren't even linked up. Got any Canadian data ?

[Guest Derek L]

huh! Quoting the most current figure available... that's not allowed? I mean, c'mon - you're certainly free to put up LockMart projection propaganda on what production cost Canada will actually pay. Where's the bouncing projection number at today?

you keep saying costs have come down... you keep saying it! Again, citation request. By the by, why are you ignoring my repeated references to the Super Hornet & Growler?

It's allowed, but not accurate as to what Canada will be eventually paying........And said pricing citation(s) have been provided numerous times through this thread………….

I fail to understand your reference to the Super Hornet & Growler? Canada, like the RAAF, wouldn’t receive the same pricing synergies as the F-35, since a hypothetical Canadian purchase, like the RAAF, would be a stand alone order and not part of a larger United States and International order.

[Guest Derek L]

What the Americans pay now or are willing to pay in the future cannot be directly applied to Canada.

This is correct in that the eventual purchase price of the F-35A won’t be determined by a Canadian purchase via a FMS through DoD, but by the overall purchase at said time by the United States and the F-35 partner nations……..A progressive sale if you will.

[bush_cheney2004]

I fail to understand your reference to the Super Hornet & Growler? Canada, like the RAAF, wouldn’t receive the same pricing synergies as the F-35, since a hypothetical Canadian purchase, like the RAAF, would be a stand alone order and not part of a larger United States and International order.

Moreover, Canada and other nations may actually increase costs by trying to make up for the loss of domestic offsets. Canada's PBO is still kicking around the idea of a separate Final Assembly and Check Out facility (FACO), like Italy, to the tune of an extra BILLION dollars. Trouble is, Canada's buy is so small that it is not worth it, save for political points with labour back home.

[Guest Derek L]

Moreover, Canada and other nations may actually increase costs by trying to make up for the loss of domestic offsets. Canada's PBO is still kicking around the idea of a separate Final Assembly and Check Out facility (FACO), like Italy, to the tune of an extra BILLION dollars. Trouble is, Canada's buy is so small that it is not worth it, save for political points with labour back home.

It won't happen.........Instead, we'll get a F-35 training facility in either Cold Lake or Goose Bay

And this just in:

http://www.stockhouse.com/news/canadianreleasesdetail.aspx?n=8904387

PARIS AIR SHOW, Le Bourget, June 17, 2013 /CNW/ - Magellan Aerospace has signed a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) with BAE Systems for work on the F-35 Lightning II program. Under the agreement Magellan will produce more than 1,000 sets of horizontal tails for the Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) variant of the F-35 program over a 20-year period. The agreement, announced today at the Paris Air Show, Le Bourget, formalizes the continuation of the strategic relationship between BAE Systems and Magellan.

Magellan will produce F-35A horizontal tail assemblies using components that require advanced composite manufacturing, machining capabilities, and strict quality standards. The majority of the components used for the assembly are produced in Magellan's divisions. The horizontal tail production under the MOA has a potential value of over Cdn. $1.2 billion over the life of the program. Magellan has achieved sales of more than $100M Cdn. on the F-35 program to date.

Another boon for the Canadian Aerospace industry.......

Edited June 17, 2013 by Derek L

[GostHacked]

How much money has Canada spent on the F-35s, and why do we not have ANY in possession at this point?

[Guest Derek L]

How much money has Canada spent on the F-35s, and why do we not have ANY in possession at this point?

We’ve spent ~$350 million on the development to date, and Canadian industry has already received slightly more then said total in terms of work on the initial F-35 orders……..As to actually acquiring them, we’re deferring until the full rate production is in full swing in several years to achieve better economies of scale.

[waldo]

We’ve spent ~$350 million on the development to date, and Canadian industry has already received slightly more then said total in terms of work on the initial F-35 orders……..

said total? Who said? Do you have an actual accounting of what Canadian industry has "already received"... not disputing it, just would like to see it itemized. Surely, some form of LockMart propaganda should be a ready-reach for you, right?

As to actually acquiring them, we’re deferring until the full rate production is in full swing in several years to achieve better economies of scale.

better economies of scale!!! Buzzword Bingo! Are you saying it has nothing to do with the fact the plane has, quite literally, shown diddly squat capability to-date? Are they actually letting the non-test pilots into them yet? Don't make me reach for Winslow!!!

.

[bush_cheney2004]

better economies of scale!!! Buzzword Bingo! Are you saying it has nothing to do with the fact the plane has, quite literally, shown diddly squat capability to-date? Are they actually letting the non-test pilots into them yet? Don't make me reach for Winslow!!!

.

Canada is still just a loonie pinching tire kicker for F-35s.....reach for your wallet instead.

[waldo]

I fail to understand your reference to the Super Hornet & Growler? Canada, like the RAAF, wouldn’t receive the same pricing synergies as the F-35, since a hypothetical Canadian purchase, like the RAAF, would be a stand alone order and not part of a larger United States and International order.

huh! If, presumably, Boeing is the/a leading alternative to the F-35, why wouldn't one compare pricing to the Super Hornet/Growler? As I recall, you were the one that initiated the long drawn out discussion on Australia Super Hornet/Growler pricing. Make up your mind!

[waldo]

Canada is still just a loonie pinching tire kicker for F-35s.....reach for your wallet instead.

then move along... this thread is obviously of no consequence to you then, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

said total? Who said? Do you have an actual accounting of what Canadian industry has "already received"... not disputing it, just would like to see it itemized. Surely, some form of LockMart propaganda should be a ready-reach for you, right?

.

As of last summer:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ad-ad.nsf/eng/ad03962.html#a3C3

Table 3: Contracts and Identified Opportunities as of June/July 2012 Category Values in Billions USD Contracts $0.438 Identified Opportunities $9.328 Sum of Contracts and Identified Opportunities $9.766

$438 million.......One could add the recent deal, but that's the total as of last year.

better economies of scale!!! Buzzword Bingo! Are you saying it has nothing to do with the fact the plane has, quite literally, shown diddly squat capability to-date? Are they actually letting the non-test pilots into them yet? Don't make me reach for Winslow!!!

Why just last week:

Reach for Winslow all you want, even the GAO, as I linked several months ago, has dismissed his claims.....

Edited June 17, 2013 by Derek L

[waldo]

you keep saying costs have come down... you keep saying it! Again, citation request. By the by, why are you ignoring my repeated references to the Super Hornet & Growler?

well MLW member, 'Derek L', you commented on the last sentence in this sequence (re: Super Hornet/Growler)... somehow... somehow... you missed the first two sentences/citation request to have you support your (now repeated) claim that F-35 costs have come down:

***bump***

Edited June 17, 2013 by waldo

[bush_cheney2004]

then move along... this thread is obviously of no consequence to you then, hey?

No, it's fun to watch you get tied up in knots using American data and sources (as usual) concerning aircraft and variants that Canada will never buy.

Maybe I can add some more U.S. photos of U.S. F-35s at U.S. bases in the U.S.

Here's a nice one:

Edited June 17, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

huh! If, presumably, Boeing is the/a leading alternative to the F-35, why wouldn't one compare pricing to the Super Hornet/Growler? As I recall, you were the one that initiated the long drawn out discussion on Australia Super Hornet/Growler pricing. Make up your mind!

One would have to compare Australian contract pricing as opposed to past USN purchases, then account for the fact that there were some savings to be found with the RAAF since their purchase several years ago took place well Boeing was producing a much larger USN order……..Boeing won’t be producing such an order for the Americans in the 2017+ timeframe, since the Super Hornet line in St Louis will be ceasing in the next several years.

[Boges]

There were F-35s in the new Man of Steel movie.

General Zod pwned them.

[Guest Derek L]

well MLW member, 'Derek L', you commented on the last sentence in this sequence (re: Super Hornet/Growler)... somehow... somehow... you missed the first two sentences/citation request to have you support your (now repeated) claim that F-35 costs have come down:

***bump***

I haven't, I've already provided said links in this very thread........

But for shits and giggles:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/08aabc08-cf57-11e2-be7b-00144feab7de.html#axzz2WUr47huW

In its annual report, the Pentagon for the first time showed a year-on-year drop in the forecast cost of F-35’s development, which is expected to come in at $391bn, down from the $395bn expectation last year. The total cost of the 50-year programme was pegged at $1.5tn, down from $1.51tn, though it remains dependent on fuel costs.

With the drop, the F-35 managed to buck the general trend across the US’s 78 main arms programmes whose costs rose $40bn, or 2.4 per cent, over the year.

[bush_cheney2004]

…..Boeing won’t be producing such an order for the Americans in the 2017+ timeframe, since the Super Hornet line in St Louis will be ceasing in the next several years.

Yep, and in this respect, time (delays) are the F-35's best friend. Canada will have time to upgrade their old CF-188's yet again !

[waldo]

Table 3: Contracts and Identified Opportunities as of June/July 2012 Category Values in Billions USD Contracts $0.438 Identified Opportunities $9.328 Sum of Contracts and Identified Opportunities $9.766

thankee... as I said, I wasn't disputing your number... in this case. Since you took the trouble of bold-highlighting the "identified", let me take the liberty to offer the appropriate perspective:

Because it is difficult to predict what proportion of the identified opportunities companies in Canada will secure, or how large the additional unidentified opportunities will be, an overall prediction of the final value of work that will be secured by companies in Canada (or even a range of possible outcomes) cannot be reliably made at this point.

.

Reach for Winslow all you want, even the GAO, as I linked several months ago, has dismissed his claims.....

the GAO? That's the group Winslow Wheeler worked for at one time, right? In any case, whatever you say you linked to several months ago, I must not have seen it! I certainly wouldn't have let you get away with that/this howler! Here, have a chew at Winslow's own response to the GAO critique... of his critique: care to dispute any of his claims?

.

[Guest Derek L]

Yep, and in this respect, time (delays) are the F-35's best friend. Canada will have time to upgrade their old CF-188's yet again !

It won't be an issue in all reality:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/23/us-lockheed-fighter-cost-idUSBRE94M1B820130523

* The Pentagon now forecasts that the conventional takeoff A-model will average a cost of $76.8 million per plane, excluding R&D costs, down which is $1.9 million less than the estimate provided last year. The B-model, which can take off and land like a helicopter, is slated to cost $103.6 million per plane.

Of course said figure is sans engine, support, training etc, but aligns with the Conservative Governments estimates………hence the hard ceiling budgeted for the Hornet replacement.

[Guest Derek L]

thankee... as I said, I wasn't disputing your number... in this case. Since you took the trouble of bold-highlighting the "identified", let me take the liberty to offer the appropriate perspective:

.

the GAO? That's the group Winslow Wheeler worked for at one time, right? In any case, whatever you say you linked to several months ago, I must not have seen it! I certainly wouldn't have let you get away with that/this howler! Here, have a chew at Winslow's own response to the GAO critique... of his critique: care to dispute any of his claims?

.

No, Winslow has been a hack since the 70s, and when even past critics (like the GAO) of the F-35 are rolling their eyes at his boobery, I won’t waste any further time on him.

[Guest Derek L]

No, it's fun to watch you get tied up in knots using American data and sources (as usual) concerning aircraft and variants that Canada will never buy.

Maybe I can add some more U.S. photos of U.S. F-35s at U.S. bases in the U.S.

Here's a nice one:

I'm partial to this depiction..........

Behold, the CF-35.......now with Quebec and Ontario content

[waldo]

I haven't, I've already provided said links in this very thread........

said links? Who said?

show the link you now state you provided in this very thread... show the link that supports your claim that F-35 costs have come down? Show it!

But for shits and giggles:

In its annual report, the Pentagon for the first time showed a year-on-year drop in the forecast cost of F-35’s development, which is expected to come in at $391bn, down from the $395bn expectation last year. The total cost of the 50-year programme was pegged at $1.5tn, down from $1.51tn, though it remains dependent on fuel costs.

that's a projection... doesn't support your claim on the existing program costs coming down. Is there a problem here for you?

but oh my! You really, really need to get your talking points lined up better here. You can't be throwing down a link that speaks to a $1.5 Trillion dollar cost for the F-35.... not while dog&pony show LockMart executives are disputing an estimate... even when it was only pegged at $1 Trillion!

[bush_cheney2004]

Behold, the CF-35.......now with Quebec and Ontario content

Oh no....more RED...WHITE...and BLUE paint !