Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Not going to happen for the long term. Trudeau won't be around that long. Right, NORAD has already survived a Trudeau, Carter, Clinton and Chretien.........Canada abandoning it would result in a major shift in both our countries relations. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Canada abandoning NORAD would probably be the best thing. A ) we wouldn't be associated with the US making us less of a target. B ) we'd have to have an adult conversation about what proper defence costs. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Right, NORAD has already survived a Trudeau, Carter, Clinton and Chretien.........Canada abandoning it would result in a major shift in both our countries relations. I agree....limitations in expeditionary aircraft have been tolerated by U.S./NATO....NORAD is literally closer to home. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Canada abandoning NORAD would probably be the best thing. A ) we wouldn't be associated with the US making us less of a target. B ) we'd have to have an adult conversation about what proper defence costs. Wrong...see NATO, NAFTA, and dozens of other entanglements. Nice try..... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Wrong...see NATO, NAFTA, and dozens of other entanglements. Nice try..... I didn't realize that FTAs made us targets, or that they were defence agreements. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Like I said, everything is optional. Are you suggesting the Trudeau Liberals would tear up the NORAD treaty? It's clearly not "optional": NORAD shall include such forces as are specifically made available to it by the Parties to fulfill its missions. The authority of Commander NORAD over those forces and resources is limited to operational control as defined in Article I, paragraph 2b. Temporary reinforcement from one area to another, including the crossing of the international boundary, to meet operational requirements is within the authority of commanders having operational control. Additional United States and Canadian resources may be designated by the respective Parties to provide support to NORAD, including through cooperative arrangements with other commands and agencies. As written, the NORAD treaty doesn't make provisions for the withdraw of said Forces assigned to it........hence the Trudeau Liberals would be leaving NORAD, unless the Americans agree to add their Forces to the Canadian region of NORAD........The Trudeau Liberals (not even the NDP) have/had signaled anything remotely close to what you suggest.......hence your suggestion is baseless. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 I didn't realize that FTAs made us targets, or that they were defence agreements. Of course they do....the defense contracts alone would still matter. I'm beginning to understand your underlying agenda, and it is not based on economic reality. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 I agree....limitations in expeditionary aircraft have been tolerated by U.S./NATO....NORAD is literally closer to home. Exactly.......it would be hard for a Government to explain to the Canadian populace why American aircraft are policing our airspace. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 hence your suggestion is baseless. Oh wait, so now we're going by what Trudeau says? One point made, it seems. Every country is buying fewer fighter jets than planned. We will not buy 65. I can almost guarantee that. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Exactly.......it would be hard for a Government to explain to the Canadian populace why American aircraft are policing our airspace. They already are. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Exactly.......it would be hard for a Government to explain to the Canadian populace why American aircraft are policing our airspace. Krikey, I didn't even think about that political disaster. Yankee Go Home !!! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Of course they do....the defense contracts alone would still matter. I'm beginning to understand your underlying agenda, and it is not based on economic reality. I think reality is a forgone concept with him..... Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Of course they do....the defense contracts alone would still matter. Actually, if they do what I'm suggesting I'd be very unhappy. I'm a proponent of a 120 jet airforce with 72 combat aircraft allowing permanent forward operations in Canada. This isn't my idea. I'm simply going by what's happening in most of Europe and even the US at the moment. Less is more. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 They already are. Sure, per the NORAD agreement......we leave NORAD, the Americans will fill the void as they see fit. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 I think reality is a forgone concept with him..... With a $9B envelope, we can't buy 65 of anything that we're looking at. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Sure, per the NORAD agreement......we leave NORAD, the Americans will fill the void as they see fit. American jets are going to violate our airspace without permission? Yeah, sure. I mean, if that's the case, I'm not sure we should be allied with such people at all. We might as well ally ourselves with the Russians. Edited December 23, 2015 by Smallc Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Oh wait, so now we're going by what Trudeau says? One point made, it seems. Not at all, we're going by political reality. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Not at all, we're going by political reality. Political reality - Canadians don't care about DND. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Actually, if they do what I'm suggesting I'd be very unhappy. I'm a proponent of a 120 jet airforce with 72 combat aircraft allowing permanent forward operations in Canada. This isn't my idea. I'm simply going by what's happening in most of Europe and even the US at the moment. Less is more. Easy there...the U.S. has over 13,000 operational military aircraft...down from 15,000 ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 American jets are going to violate our airspace without permission? Yeah, sure. Of course they would, the Americans have made that very clear in the past (see BOMARC). Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 With a $9B envelope, we can't buy 65 of anything that we're looking at. Absent money added (which they don't have), I've said numerous times, this Government won't be buying anything inside this mandate.......that doesn't mean they will abandon NORAD, nor have they signaled that.......the NDP haven't even suggested that, hence, you're talking out of your ass. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Absent money added (which they don't have), I've said numerous times, this Government won't be buying anything inside this mandate.......that doesn't mean they will abandon NORAD, nor have they signaled that.......the NDP haven't even suggested that, hence, you're talking out of your ass. Yep...looks like a 2025 or 2030 LEP after all....Hornets forever ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 Yep...looks like a 2025 or 2030 LEP after all....Hornets forever ! Without a doubt. Quote
Smallc Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Easy there...the U.S. has over 13,000 operational military aircraft...down from 15,000 ! Yes - a more than 20% reduction. Absent money added (which they don't have), I've said numerous times, this Government won't be buying anything inside this mandate We've already been through your misunderstanding about where procurement money comes from. The budget envelope buys us about 50 aircraft. Trudeau has said they will pick an aircraft. Apparently, you're very selective on which words of his you want to hear. Edited December 23, 2015 by Smallc Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 23, 2015 Report Posted December 23, 2015 We've already been through your misunderstanding about where procurement money comes from. The budget envelope buys us about 50 aircraft. You have a source from where said money is currently located yet? Trudeau has said they will pick an aircraft. Apparently, you're very selective on which words of his you want to hear. Trudeau has said lots of things.........how many refugees are in Canada again? And how's the prospects of our budget being under their promised $10 billion deficit again? And what of the revenue neutral "middle class" tax cuts? Quote
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