Prime Minister Harper confirms ‘no’ vote on Palestine at UN

[login]

By that do you mean actually conservative, or vote conservative?

Who the hell would vote conservative if they wern't conservative?

I'm conservative (fiscally and personally but not in view of social policy) and I don't even vote conservative.

p.s. Anyone else wearing their body armour tommorrow?

Edited November 29, 2012 by login

[Guest]

Who the hell would vote conservative if they wern't conservative?

I'm conservative (fiscally and personally but not in view of social policy) and I don't even vote conservative.

That's a strange thing to say. You ask me who would vote conservative if they were not conservative, and then go on to state that you are and don't. In other words, you don't have to vote for the party with the name that best describes you. Why should I?

I don't think I'm particularly conservative, being non religious, pro choice, pro gay marriage, etc, but I believe that the conservative party are the best political party in Canada right now to form the government. I'm right. That's why I vote for them.

[dre]

It’s a mater of perspective I suppose, in that (as mentioned in the article) Palestinian membership will have the exact opposite effect (as hoped by many) when it comes to future peace talks and/or negotiations on settlements…………..All this will do is further entrench Israel and those that support her (As I do for my reasons highlighted) and t

The cycle will go on and on………rinse and repeat.

That cycle has been going on for 50 years anyways. Might as well try something different.

The Abbas government is the most moderate in history, and theyve cracked down on militants and basically done everything the west and Israel asked of them. It got them no results, What exactly do you expect them to do?

In February 2010, Palestinian Authority security forces in the West Bank arrested a Hamas cell preparing to test-fire a Qassam rocket near Ramallah and handed the rocket over to Israel. Hamas later stated that "Having a Qassam rocket in the West Bank is a demand that must be achieved".^[195][198]

On June 20, 2010, senior Hamas official Mahmoud a-Zahar called on Palestinian residents of the West Bank to fire rockets into Israel.^[199]

On October 22, 2010, the Palestinian Authority seized a large cache of arms, including mortar shells, which it said were meant to be used by Hamas terrorists targeting Palestinian Authority officials or attempting to sabotage Palestinian Authority security enforcement in the West Bank. Hamas denied this, stating that any weapons would be used against "the occupation", apparently referring to Israel

The Abbas government is the best chance we will ever have for a peaceful resolution of the conflict. It needs to be demonstrated to the palestinians that renouncing violence and electing moderates will get them results, otherwise you undermine moderates and empower groups like Hamas.

Edited November 29, 2012 by dre

[Guest]

p.s. Anyone else wearing their body armour tommorrow?

What's happening tomorrow?

[cybercoma]

Your point? I’m speaking to Israel versus an Islamic State

This isn't about versus. Palestine is already a de facto Islamic State. It's about recognizing their sovereignty.

[Smallc]

Amazing to see people like SmallC coming out against a two state solution.

I think that there should be two states, but there isn't a workable situation that really leads to that right now, I don't think.

[Bonam]

I actually support the Palestinian's bid for statehood at the UN. I think them trying to achieve their ends through peaceful and legal means is commendable and should be encouraged. In fact, a unilateral Palestinian declaration of statehood and assertion of sovereignty is probably the most likely way towards a two state solution to actually be implemented. And I believe that this step is beneficial for Israel as well. Any attacks (if/when they occur from the West Bank in the future) from a sovereign state can be considered an act of war and responded to appropriately, rather than the ambiguous nature of responding to resistance in an occupied territory.

[Guest Derek L]

This isn't about versus. Palestine is already a de facto Islamic State. It's about recognizing their sovereignty.

And my post:

Ditto.............I just ask myself, if I had to choose between living in a Jewish state or a Muslim theocracy, which one would allow me (and my family) to live closer to the same standard (and personal freedom) of living as I do now……….Pretty simple choice……….Anyone choosing an Islamic State, is either Muslim, haven’t actually been to one or is daft..........Hence I side with Israel.

Is in response to William/Logins post:

Hi hudson, a no vote is a mistake for Canada, and does not represent the Canadian publics view.

Israel has committed war crimes and should be held accountable just like the US and Canada.

Its disgusting NATO is an organization that supports war crimes and human rights abuses such as Israel commits.

One can't expect peace when the standards existing violate human rights.

Login proclaimed to speak to Canadians views, which on this manner is incorrect for many…….As such I outlined why I side with Israel over Islamic States, from my own personal perspective as neither a Jew or Muslim (Or Religious for that mater).

Ask yourself this:

In which country (Gaza/West Bank or Israel) could you go into a public park or street corner with a sandwich board proclaiming Abraham/Muhammad fornicates with goats and reasonably expect to leave alive?

[Guest]

And I believe that this step is beneficial for Israel as well. Any attacks (if/when they occur from the West Bank in the future) from a sovereign state can be considered an act of war and responded to appropriately, rather than the ambiguous nature of responding to resistance in an occupied territory.

That's a good point. No-one could whine about a disproportionate response then.

Edited November 29, 2012 by bcsapper

[dre]

I think that there should be two states, but there isn't a workable situation that really leads to that right now, I don't think.

I disagree. Read my post above.

The Abbas government is the most moderate in history, and theyve cracked down on militants and basically done everything the west and Israel asked of them. It got them no results, What exactly do you expect them to do?

Quote

In February 2010, Palestinian Authority security forces in the West Bank arrested a Hamas cell preparing to test-fire a Qassam rocket near Ramallah and handed the rocket over to Israel. Hamas later stated that "Having a Qassam rocket in the West Bank is a demand that must be achieved".^[195][198]

On June 20, 2010, senior Hamas official Mahmoud a-Zahar called on Palestinian residents of the West Bank to fire rockets into Israel.^[199]

On October 22, 2010, the Palestinian Authority seized a large cache of arms, including mortar shells, which it said were meant to be used by Hamas terrorists targeting Palestinian Authority officials or attempting to sabotage Palestinian Authority security enforcement in the West Bank. Hamas denied this, stating that any weapons would be used against "the occupation", apparently referring to Israel

The Abbas government is the best chance we will ever have for a peaceful resolution of the conflict. It needs to be demonstrated to the palestinians that renouncing violence and electing moderates will get them results, otherwise you undermine moderates and empower groups like Hamas.

The Abbas government has done everything thats been asked of them, yet it has gotten them nowhere. There is simply no reason for palestinians to renounce violence and elect moderates unless doing so leads to results. The window is open for a brief time now, and if we let it close it may well be forever this time.

Theres 4 million people living in that territory that have a the protection of no state, and are being denied self determination for no good reason at all. Im not at all suprised that all moronic hawks on here want that to continue but I AM suprised that you do. The Abbas government is making a peaceful diplomatic attempt at statehood, playing by OUR rules.

Edited November 29, 2012 by dre

[Evening Star]

I actually support the Palestinian's bid for statehood at the UN. I think them trying to achieve their ends through peaceful and legal means is commendable and should be encouraged. In fact, a unilateral Palestinian declaration of statehood and assertion of sovereignty is probably the most likely way towards a two state solution to actually be implemented. And I believe that this step is beneficial for Israel as well. Any attacks (if/when they occur from the West Bank in the future) from a sovereign state can be considered an act of war and responded to appropriately, rather than the ambiguous nature of responding to resistance in an occupied territory.

This was very well-put.

[Guest Derek L]

I disagree. Read my post above.

The Abbas government has done everything thats been asked of them, yet it has gotten them nowhere. There is simply no reason for palestinians to renounce violence and elect moderates unless doing so leads to results. The window is open for a brief time now, and if we let it close it may well be forever this time.

Theres 4 million people living in that territory that have a the protection of no state, and are being denied self determination for no good reason at all. Im not at all suprised that all moronic hawks on here want that to continue but I AM suprised that you do.

Then explain how that a lasting peace will come about with Israel not supportive?

[login]

And my post:

Is in response to William/Logins post:

Login proclaimed to speak to Canadians views, which on this manner is incorrect for many…….As such I outlined why I side with Israel over Islamic States, from my own personal perspective as neither a Jew or Muslim (Or Religious for that mater).

Ask yourself this:

In which country (Gaza/West Bank or Israel) could you go into a public park or street corner with a sandwich board proclaiming Abraham/Muhammad fornicates with goats and reasonably expect to leave alive?

please don't troll

here is a scooby snack.

http://www.thestar.c...l-and-palestine

Far more Canadians support statehood than oppose it, according to a BBC poll.

Right the BBC has shoddy journalism.. (joke) hold on

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...-palestine.html

Heres a song talking about the plight of palastine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFSLFBAJdBI

This is canada's no vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZQYZZtAHk

Edited November 29, 2012 by login

[Hudson Jones]

Some don’t feel Palestine deserves a state yet.

Then those people are as hopeless as people who don't accept Israel as a state. People who hold such views should be sidelined and we should move forward in what is inevitable. The right of the Palestinians to self determination and state, living along side Israel.

[Hudson Jones]

Then explain how that a lasting peace will come about with Israel not supportive?

Most Israelis are supportive of a Palestinian state being formed. The government of Israel is being run by ultra right wing conservatives who want nothing but the status quo to continue so that they could annex more Palestinian land and so that their dreams of Greater Israel is met. This is why the number of government sponsored Jewish settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have gone from 100,000 to 600,000 since the Oslo Accord.

These people do not want to negotiate just like Apartheid South African government didn't want to negotiate.

[Guest Derek L]

Then those people are as hopeless as people who don't accept Israel as a state. People who hold such views should be sidelined and we should move forward in what is inevitable. The right of the Palestinians to self determination and state, living along side Israel.

So if a Palestinian State were to be “born” and recognised Internationally, and said state continued to launch rockets into Israel, you’d recognize Israel’s right to respond with force?

[dre]

I actually support the Palestinian's bid for statehood at the UN. I think them trying to achieve their ends through peaceful and legal means is commendable and should be encouraged. In fact, a unilateral Palestinian declaration of statehood and assertion of sovereignty is probably the most likely way towards a two state solution to actually be implemented. And I believe that this step is beneficial for Israel as well. Any attacks (if/when they occur from the West Bank in the future) from a sovereign state can be considered an act of war and responded to appropriately, rather than the ambiguous nature of responding to resistance in an occupied territory.

No to mention a state in the west bank will be heavily reliant on foreign aid. We will be able to exert a fair ammount of influence on them. This worked pretty well with countries like Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan.

Plus like I said, the window will close soon... If Abbas doesnt see any results for his efforts, then more militant governments will come after.

Funny how we will spend billions of dollars and sacrifice thousands of lives for muslims in Afghanistan to have self determination, but we wont put a checkmark in the "Yes" box in some symbolic UN vote for 4 million palestinians to have the same thing.

Edited November 29, 2012 by dre

[jbg]

Are you both happy you get to be loosers tommorow.

Why don't you join the good guys?

It reflects my view. I am proud that Canada is voting the right way and hope that my country is as well.

And I'd be happy if you learn to spell.

[dre]

This was very well-put.

Agreed. Bonam is a strong supporter of Israel as well, and its a lot easier to march in lock-step position by position, and support everything your "side" wants.

Not suprising though in his case.

I agree on all counts. This is the legal and moral way for the Abbas government to seek statehood.... through peaceful diplomacy. Contrast that with thousands of rockets being launched from Gaza, and it becomes pretty clear which approach we should support.

[Guest]

please don't troll

What exactly is trolling? I ask out of genuine curiosity, and a wish to avoid warning points. How come the post you referred to is trolling, and your post here:

Are you both happy you get to be loosers tommorow.

Why don't you join the good guys?

is not?

[Evening Star]

So if a Palestinian State were to be “born” and recognised Internationally, and said state continued to launch rockets into Israel, you’d recognize Israel’s right to respond with force?

I would, yes.

[dre]

I would, yes.

Me to... it kinda goes without saying.

Gotta look at the circumstances though... If a rocket comes over the wall, and Israel believes that it was a non state actor, and that the palestinian government was doing their best to prevent attacks, it would not make sense to start a war over it.

[Guest Derek L]

I would, yes.

Fair enough, but under the current arrangement?

Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand the dogma associated with one man’s terrorist being another man’s freedom fighter……….As I said though, I feel Israel is within the right for the reasons I highlighted earlier………

To add to my earlier theme (of unanswered) questions to others:

Israel has had the means to off the entire Arab world for going on 50 years, now if the proverbial nuclear shoe was on the other foot, do you feel if any of Israel’s past/current aggressors opponents had said option and Israel did not, Israel would not be a glass parking lot today?

[Evening Star]

I could see how your previous question was relevant to the issue of how Canada should vote on this UN motion. I'm having a harder time seeing the relevance of these questions.

As Bonam has stated, one advantage of recognizing Palestinian statehood is that it makes it much clearer how to gauge an appropriate response to potential aggression.

Fair enough, but under the current arrangement?

Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand the dogma associated with one man’s terrorist being another man’s freedom fighter……….As I said though, I feel Israel is within the right for the reasons I highlighted earlier………

To add to my earlier theme (of unanswered) questions to others:

Israel has had the means to off the entire Arab world for going on 50 years, now if the proverbial nuclear shoe was on the other foot, do you feel if any of Israel’s past/current aggressors opponents had said option and Israel did not, Israel would not be a glass parking lot today?

[Hudson Jones]

I actually support the Palestinian's bid for statehood at the UN. I think them trying to achieve their ends through peaceful and legal means is commendable and should be encouraged. In fact, a unilateral Palestinian declaration of statehood and assertion of sovereignty is probably the most likely way towards a two state solution to actually be implemented. And I believe that this step is beneficial for Israel as well. Any attacks (if/when they occur from the West Bank in the future) from a sovereign state can be considered an act of war and responded to appropriately, rather than the ambiguous nature of responding to resistance in an occupied territory.

Couldn't agree more. The benefits to the Palestinians is a given, but as pointed out above, it's a benefit for Israelis as well.