Conservative government approves of affirmative action

[The_Squid]

In a letter obtained by CBC News, Toews is demanding that RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson rewrite a report addressing gender inequality in the force.

Toews says the RCMP needs to recruit more women, with the goal of having women make up at least 30 per cent of the force. He also wants to see more women promoted within the RCMP's ranks.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/11/23/can-rcmp-toews-paulson-women-equality-letter.html

Where is this new-found principled stand for gender equality coming from? Is it a response to the harassment issues the RCMP is facing?

Do the CPCs now defend affirmative action programs within the government?

And how will this affect the support among their constituency who are often against such programs? These people thought there would be a new dawn of fairness when the Conservatives were elected to a majority... are these people disappointed?

[Guest]

Where is this new-found principled stand for gender equality coming from? Is it a response to the harassment issues the RCMP is facing?

Do the CPCs now defend affirmative action programs within the government?

And how will this affect the support among their constituency who are often against such programs? These people thought there would be a new dawn of fairness when the Conservatives were elected to a majority... are these people disappointed?

Speaking for myself only, it won't affect it much. I'm against affirmative action but it's not something that would get me to vote for another party, especially as they all support it too.

[Moonbox]

I'm not really against affirmative action either. Women make up 50% of the population, so I don't think it's unreasonable to want more of them on the force. The physical requirements should make allowances for the difference in sexes for sure, as I understand that's a current barrier to entry. Where affirmative action becomes a problem, however, is where completely unqualified or lousy candidates get jobs just because of demographics.

[Guest]

I'm not really against affirmative action either. Women make up 50% of the population, so I don't think it's unreasonable to want more of them on the force. The physical requirements should make allowances for the difference in sexes for sure, as I understand that's a current barrier to entry. Where affirmative action becomes a problem, however, is where completely unqualified or lousy candidates get jobs just because of demographics.

I think another problem is the possibility that more men than women want to be police officers.

[Michael Hardner]

I think another problem is the possibility that more men than women want to be police officers.

Almost all of the applicants are white males.

We had a thread a few years back wherein somebody complained about discrimination because his son told a guidance counsellor that he wanted to be a cop and the response was "don't bother unless you're a woman or minority".

The fact was that they had created specific spots for women and minorities - not taking hires away from the general hiring list. The competition for that list is so fierce that it's almost pointless to apply. Hence the comment from the guidance counsellor. But most of the hires were still white males.

[Guest]

If most of the applicants are white males, it makes sense that most of the hires are white males. That's exactly my point.

You can't force women to want to be police officers.

[Michael Hardner]

If most of the applicants are white males, it makes sense that most of the hires are white males. That's exactly my point.

You can't force women to want to be police officers.

Well, yes. I think it may be likely that there is a lower % of females on the force than females who apply for positions by that logic.

[Guest]

Well, yes. I think it may be likely that there is a lower % of females on the force than females who apply for positions by that logic.

But the logic is yours. I was just saying that it makes sense.

[cybercoma]

If most of the applicants are white males, it makes sense that most of the hires are white males. That's exactly my point.

You can't force women to want to be police officers.

Why are most of the applicants white males?

[Guest]

Why are most of the applicants white males?

I don't know. I was just going off the previous post.

[TimG]

Where is this new-found principled stand for gender equality coming from? Is it a response to the harassment issues the RCMP is facing?

I generally oppose affirmative action but support it when it comes to police because in order to do their job effectively the police must be seen to represent the communities they serve. e.g. an all white police will be less effective as a group if it has to police a city with a large minority population. I would apply the same logic to any profession where the same argument could be made.

It does not surprise me that conservatives would support this type of affirmative action. If they supported affirmative action for construction workers or engineers then I would be surprised.

[cybercoma]

I don't know. I was just going off the previous post.

Well, let's think about it. Why would the vast majority of people that apply for the job be white males, although anyone can apply? It's worth considering in the context of the topic.

[Argus]

Well, yes. I think it may be likely that there is a lower % of females on the force than females who apply for positions by that logic.

Generally any female who applies get accepted, if the force can find any way at all to help her through the tests. But I'm not all that concerned. I consider the RCMP to be mostly staffed by incompetent idiots anyway. So allowing incompetent females to join won't really have that much effect.

[Argus]

Why are most of the applicants white males?

For cultural reasons. The same reason most applicants for nursing positions are female.

[Argus]

I generally oppose affirmative action but support it when it comes to police because in order to do their job effectively the police must be seen to represent the communities they serve.

This is patent nonsense. The only way it would make sense would be if they dispatched Black police (or female or Muslim) every time a call came in from a black or female or Muslim person. And that doesn't happen. Police forces in the US have been under legal orders to represent the same numbers of minorities and it has done pretty much nothing to lower cries of racism or address distrust on the part of minority communities.

[TimG]

The only way it would make sense would be if they dispatched Black police (or female or Muslim) every time a call came in from a black or female or Muslim person.

The collective reputation of a police force affects how people in the community react to it and a bad collective reputation hinders police work. For example, you claim the RCMP is a bunch of incompetents. This is a judgement based on your opinion of the collective reputation of the RCMP and it would likely affect your interactions with individual officers even though there are likely many competent RCMP officers.

A police force that is overwhelmingly white men will not have a good collective reputation for the same reasons. It makes no difference how good the individual officers are if the collective reputation is bad.

Edited November 23, 2012 by TimG

[Argus]

A police force that is overwhelmingly white men will not have a good collective reputation for the same reasons. It makes no difference how good the individual officers are if the collective reputation is bad.

The LAPD had been using affirmative action to hire and promote Blacks for a long time prior to the Rodney King incident. Did it enjoy a good reputation among minorities in LA? Does it now?

[Argus]

The LAPD had been using affirmative action to hire and promote Blacks for a long time prior to the Rodney King incident. Did it enjoy a good reputation among minorities in LA? Does it now?

BTW, I know a couple of people who work at RCMP headquarters. Their opinion is every senior executive there should be taken out back for a beating on a regular basis. The incompetence and backstabbing they describe is almost unbelievable.

[TimG]

it enjoy a good reputation among minorities in LA?

It is one of those necessary but not sufficient conditions. i.e. a mono-racial police force in an ethnically diverse city will not have a good a reputation but simply recruiting minorities is not sufficient to ensure that the police force has a good reputation. Edited November 24, 2012 by TimG

[Argus]

It is one of those necessary but not sufficient conditions. i.e. a mono-racial police force in an ethnically diverse city will not have a good a reputation but simply recruiting minorities is not sufficient to ensure that the police force has a good reputation.

To enjoy a good reputation what a police force needs to do is recruit good, intelligent, honest people and make sure they're held to task for obeying the rules they enforce. Do that and all else falls into place.

I don't think hiring inferior candidates based on skin colour or genitalia really helps all that much.

[TimG]

To enjoy a good reputation what a police force needs to do is recruit good, intelligent, honest people and make sure they're held to task for obeying the rules they enforce. Do that and all else falls into place.

It would be nice if life what like that but it is not. No matter how good they as individuals police would be judged simply because they do not represent the community.

[Argus]

It would be nice if life what like that but it is not. No matter how good they as individuals police would be judged simply because they do not represent the community.

The police will never been seen as representing 'the community' in minority communities, particularly crime ridden minority communities. They will always be seen as outsiders enforcing outsider rules. Hiring less competent police who have the same skin colour as that community isn't going to do much to change that.

As for women, I'm not sure how happy most women are to deal with a female police officer anyway. In most circumstances, my perception is they'd rather deal with men.

[Guest Derek L]

Well, let's think about it. Why would the vast majority of people that apply for the job be white males, although anyone can apply? It's worth considering in the context of the topic.

It’s exactly the same with the Armed Forces, with perhaps one step further being White Anglo males………..As to why, I don’t know, I’d assume the “life” has many detractors for most…….Lousy pay, away from home/family/friends often, for the most when you are home it’s a small rural town (and postings to other rural towns) which will make it difficult for a spouse to have a worthwhile career and the always present possibility of not coming home from work one day………. And you can rest assured, since the early 90s DND has made a concentrated effort to appeal to minorities and women, but at the end of the day, the career is what it is.

[cybercoma]

For cultural reasons. The same reason most applicants for nursing positions are female.

What do you mean by cultural reasons?

[cybercoma]

The collective reputation of a police force affects how people in the community react to it and a bad collective reputation hinders police work. For example, you claim the RCMP is a bunch of incompetents. This is a judgement based on your opinion of the collective reputation of the RCMP and it would likely affect your interactions with individual officers even though there are likely many competent RCMP officers.

A police force that is overwhelmingly white men will not have a good collective reputation for the same reasons. It makes no difference how good the individual officers are if the collective reputation is bad.

I just want to know if I'm understanding this right. So tell me if I'm wrong.

Your argument is that the amount of trust an identifiable group has in the police has some association (not an absolute correlation, but some association) to the number of people from that identifiable group on the police force. Is that right?

We should be able to measure that by looking at trust scores and comparing them to the proportion of police from that group that respond to calls involving them.

I'm not sure if this has been done, but it would certainly be measurable in some way.

Edited November 24, 2012 by cybercoma