Conservative government approves of affirmative action

[Guest Derek L]

So women are mentally incapable of handling the job? I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

In some respects yes (For what it’s worth, my daughter is three months into her first year at RMC), it’s the "Gemeinschaft & Gesellschaft" associated with the individual…………A fellow named Sam Sarkesian wrote several books on the military sociological mindset held within an individual…………many don’t have what it takes to put their own self-interests aside in a situation in which the group-collective must come first……….

Edited November 24, 2012 by Derek L

[Argus]

Yeah. I saw that, but why would those things affect women differently? Surely men experience the same "lousy pay, time away from family/friends, [etc]..."

First of all the pay is excellent. There are a number of reasons why women don't want any part of it. One is, of course, their acknowledged physical weakness, especially in upper body strength, which makes it more difficult to physically subdue suspects, most of whom are male. Second, there is an emotional reluctance to get involved in jobs where they would encounter these kinds of physical confrontations in the first place, regardless of their self-assessment about physical limitations. Women tend to gravitate to care and nurturing jobs, not enforcement. At our agency, I can't tell you how many women have expressed the desire to get involved in HR, Benefits, Compensation, and Disability (internal and external), as opposed to Compliance, Audit or Returns Processing. Women, as a group, vastly prefer social work or nursing to security-type work.

Added to this, of course, in the case of the RCMP or military is that you'll be posted far from friends and family, and that your lifestyle will be one of odd hours, making it far more difficult to find partners and start a family. Men and women are both social, but that takes on different forms, and the military (or police) life presents many opportunities for men to socialize together, far fewer for women.

[Argus]

And a great many men don’t join the Forces/RCMP………As I said, such a question should be reversed and asked why WASPs do join.

Because men in Canada grow up on Hollywood movies and TV shows where the cop is always the hero, and where the life is portrayed as exciting and fun, with some risk thrown in (young men are inherent risk takers). Movies, TV shows and books don't show cops spending hours filling out forms and waiting around to testify in courts.

Most visible minority men in Canada are immigrants, with a different mindset with regard to police (and without the language skills), or else growing up in low-income neighborhoods were the view of police is not nearly as favourable. Then there are Asian men. Whether born in Canada or not, whether growing up in comfortable middle class surroundings or not, Asian men have shown very little interest in policing or military careers. Natives are actively recruited by the RCMP, but there are other issues there, involving not wanting to be far from home, and poor educational standards on many reserves.

[Argus]

So you think despite having the tools for the job (ie, being in a position of authority, having weapons [firearm, baton, pepper spray, taser], and usually having backup) women believe they're too weak to subdue large men, so they don't apply? I mean, there are some very successful female officers not only in the RCMP, but also in local police forces and in the military. So does the limitation actually exist in reality?

My impression is that women ARE too weak to subdue violent men, on average. They need more backup than men do, and have to resort to those tools more often than men do. Those 'successful' women are generally pushed forward by organizations under pressure from government to find women to promote.

[Guest Derek L]

Because men in Canada grow up on Hollywood movies and TV shows where the cop is always the hero, and where the life is portrayed as exciting and fun, with some risk thrown in (young men are inherent risk takers). Movies, TV shows and books don't show cops spending hours filling out forms and waiting around to testify in courts.

That should read “some young men”…………Some young men also go work in the patch or Occupy a city park, well a great many get a “regular job”.

[Argus]

That should read “some young men”…………Some young men also go work in the patch or Occupy a city park, well a great many get a “regular job”.

All young men grow up with it. Not all young men want to become a cop for a variety of reasons. For one thing, most men, probably like most women, believe that you need to be in robust physical condition. Not all men are strong and healthy. Some are skinny, some are fat, some are short, some have thick glasses, breathing issues, etc. etc. Heck, even computer nerds watch cop shows, but they know they couldn't do the job, even if they wanted to. There has also been an acknowledgement among young white men for some time that any police force will take virtually any woman or minority ahead of them, and do the same for promotions. Getting onto a police force is a very difficult, very long-drawn-out endeavor, with little certainty of success.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

del

Edited November 24, 2012 by Argus

[TimG]

I mean, there are some very successful female officers not only in the RCMP, but also in local police forces and in the military. So does the limitation actually exist in reality?

Small people who want to work in jobs like the police and military require a certain personality type to overcome the physical limitations. No matter how much you wish it government cannot change this reality. They can do outreach and educate you girls about the possibility but even if they have the knowledge that it is possible to overcome the physical limitations most women simply do not want the job. Edited November 24, 2012 by TimG

[TimG]

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Edited November 24, 2012 by TimG

[Argus]

Maybe it doesn't, but why women moreso than men?

This might shed some light on the subject.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/gender-parity-trumps-excellence-in-science/article5610999/

[Moonlight Graham]

I think another problem is the possibility that more men than women want to be police officers.

Exactly. I don't see affirmative action for men in social work agencies and daycare centers. Maybe I'm wrong?

Sometimes unequal numbers is not entirely or even partly a sign of systemic inequality, sometimes it's just gender or even cultural preferences.

[cybercoma]

First of all the pay is excellent. There are a number of reasons why women don't want any part of it. One is, of course, their acknowledged physical weakness, especially in upper body strength, which makes it more difficult to physically subdue suspects, most of whom are male. Second, there is an emotional reluctance to get involved in jobs where they would encounter these kinds of physical confrontations in the first place, regardless of their self-assessment about physical limitations. Women tend to gravitate to care and nurturing jobs, not enforcement. At our agency, I can't tell you how many women have expressed the desire to get involved in HR, Benefits, Compensation, and Disability (internal and external), as opposed to Compliance, Audit or Returns Processing. Women, as a group, vastly prefer social work or nursing to security-type work.

Added to this, of course, in the case of the RCMP or military is that you'll be posted far from friends and family, and that your lifestyle will be one of odd hours, making it far more difficult to find partners and start a family. Men and women are both social, but that takes on different forms, and the military (or police) life presents many opportunities for men to socialize together, far fewer for women.

So your argument is that women are biologically predisposed to humanity and care jobs, while avoiding physical confrontations? This isn't a cultural constraint then? Nature or nurture?

Edited November 24, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Exactly. I don't see affirmative action for men in social work agencies and daycare centers. Maybe I'm wrong?

Sometimes unequal numbers is not entirely or even partly a sign of systemic inequality, sometimes it's just gender or even cultural preferences.

It's obvious that this is just the way it is. But let's take that further and try to figure out why. What dissuades men and women from taking particular jobs?

[cybercoma]

Because men in Canada grow up on Hollywood movies and TV shows where the cop is always the hero...

And almost always male, especially in children's books, shows, and toys. Not to mention the costumes that they get to choose from for Halloween as well.

[cybercoma]

This might shed some light on the subject.

http://www.theglobea...article5610999/

An interesting article, but there's a glaring contradiction in its thesis:

Women are discouraged from entering those fields because of socialization and stereotypes and the “chilly climate” they face if they do [...] one reason more women aren’t entering these fields is that maybe they don’t want to.

The thing is maybe they don't want to because they're discouraged through socialization and stereotypes, as well as the "chilly climate" they face when they do. To say that maybe they don't want to, as though that somehow refutes these other aspects just isn't correct. Maybe they just don't want to because they're dissuaded from it. Certainly more women would want to if they didn't face this kind of discrimination and socialization, even if obviously there are women that wouldn't want to because they're just not interested.

[Argus]

So your argument is that women are biologically predisposed to humanity and care jobs, while avoiding physical confrontations? This isn't a cultural constraint then? Nature or nurture?

I think it's both. I don't doubt there is a cultural element to it, given the way boys and girls are raised. But if you try to raise one as the other you quickly find that hard-wired instincts kick in which make them want certain things. As I said, young men are risk-takers and far less adverse to physical confrontation than young women. Women, on the other hand, seem to be predisposed towards care and nurturing. Men gravitate towards hard science, while women gravitate towards softer science, medicine, social sciences, etc. There are always exceptions, and we should allow for exceptions, but I don't think we should be trying so hard to persuade men/women to do things they're not generally inclined to want to do, just because we feel the need for some sort of mathematical balance in how many do which jobs...

[Moonlight Graham]

It's obvious that this is just the way it is. But let's take that further and try to figure out why. What dissuades men and women from taking particular jobs?

Socially constructed gender roles and genetics?

There's a lot of studies on these sorts of things, would be interesting, but I'm sure it varies among different occupations.

[blueblood]

Maybe it doesn't, but why women moreso than men?

You'd have to ask them. I chose to be a farmer rather than a first grade school teacher or a nurse or a policeman or a firefighter or in the army or an engineer because that's what I wanted to do. Maybe it's a coincidence that a lot of women just don't want to be cops.