Canadians needs a bilingual education

[Bro]

Now Canadien,do you really think an anglo has a chance to become a new employee of our civil service?This is not the case ,at least according to most requirements of job postings I've read.Anyways,the majority of Canada is still

being brushed aside to accommodate the Quebec minority

of french speaking people.It is absurd that a minority of people can dictate to the majority.As long as we have a liberal government though,your luck will continue.

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

Not that you could get it, but I have said why some languages can be defined as this country's national languages, and what it means in educational terms. I won't repeat myself here.

That being said, nothing of it is a statement that there should, or that there shouldn't be, publicly-funded schools in languages other than French, English and First Nation languages. I do not believe that in those cases it is an issue of rights, but anybody who GENUINELY believes I am wrong is welcome to put his/her argument forward.

Are there then arguments that could be advanced either in favour or against public funding of schools in languages other than French, English and First Nation languages? Of course there are, on both sides. Could make for a good debate.

I have not formed an opinion on it, but I know one thing. No matter what could be said for or against publicly-funded schools in let's say Afrikaans, I know as a fact it would not take away a single right I have as a Canadian.

Now go ahead, Stoker, say that I am skirting the issue. Would be no different from saying I refuse to say when I stop beating my wife. But speaking of skirting... is majority support of the removal or negation of a right always make it democratic?

[CANADIEN]

Bro,

The notion that equal rights actually means that the minority dictating to the majority is so old, has been applied to so many situations and is so obviously false that it is not even worth commenting on it.

Now, some facts. To begin with, most jobs in our country's federal civil service still do not require knowledge of both French and English.

As for the argument that a requirement to know both languages excludes English-speakers from certain positions... It is inaccurate, although I will be the first to admit language requirements are at times applied too strictly. I personnally know English-speaking Canadians who work in bilingual positions at the federal government, and they are obviously neither prevented from working there nor looking like they've been deprived of their rights.

[seabee]

Federal civil service jobs that require the knowledge of Canada's both official languages apply to all, regardless of their mother tongue. No unilinqual francophone can get the job.

One possible reason why there are more francophones in these jobs might be that English is easier to learn than French. This stands to reason. After all, English Canada speaks it.

[August1991]

One possible reason why there are more francophones in these jobs might be that English is easier to learn than French. This stands to reason. After all, English Canada speaks it.

!!!!!

[CANADIEN]

seebee, chuckles asides... English is an easier language to learn because there are more opportunities to learn it.

Now, how long before some claim that this is unfair to English-speakers?

[Guest eureka]

I did not mention this earlier as there are some who will misunderstand or misapply the statement.

In the late 70's, I wrote an open letter to Trudeau on behalf of an organization I belonged to. Trudeau repiled with a lengthy letter that included the following sentence:

"I admit that the rights of Anglophones have been reduced but my government will not allow them to be reduced further."

That was before the Charter of Rights. I never made this misstep of Trudeau's public since the harm would have been greater than any benefit. I did, though, on the introduction of proposals for the Charter, write again asking him whether he was now determined to enshrine that reduction in Rights in the Canadian Constitution.

He did not reply to that. I assume that he was embarassed.

The point is that this is all about individual rights. Do we have them or not. The continued sidelining of this with questions about Mandarin etc. serve no purpose. It simply reduces this to a circular argument about the usefulness of languages.

To make any 3rd. language official would be a grant of new rights. Immigrants, except in Quebec, have all the exostong rights of Canadians. The Quebec situation involves the reduction of rights for one community in one province. That cannot legally or morally be done. English existed side by side with French as an equal language and community. Now it is not so.

Our Constitution recognizes French and English as equal and official so far as federal institutions go. However, the Constitution never recognized that the provision is inadequate for the French side of our shared culture and history. It makes it difficult for Francophones to live outside of Quebec although many do live in less than ideal cultural conditions.

[Stoker]

Not that you could get it, but I have said why some languages can be defined as this country's national languages, and what it means in educational terms. I won't repeat myself here.

Sure you have, now say why some languages can't.

Do you see French more superior then Hindi or Madarian for example?

Now go ahead, Stoker, say that I am skirting the issue. Would be no different from saying I refuse to say when I stop beating my wife. But speaking of skirting... is majority support of the removal or negation of a right always make it democratic?

When did this discussion move on the topic of wife beating?

And yes, you are skirting the issue, perhaps because your eyes have been opened onto the fact that you are infact a hypocrite, in that you have come to the realization that language programs, well a nice gesture, are not fiscally feasible nor prudent.

[CANADIEN]

eureka,

I wonder what you think Trudeau meant. Without knowing the rest of what he wrote, it sounds to me that he was referring to Quebec's language laws.

I see the issue of other languages differently than you (correct me if I am wrong). Are there languages other than English and French that warrant, at least in part, the same status, namely First Nations languages. I don't see that as the granting of new rights, but as the expension of what is included in existing rights, namely, those associated with national languages.

[Guest eureka]

The reference was to Quebec's language laws and to my asking why he told Quebec Anglophones to " not to look to Ottawa for help" and to "fight their own battles." He did make both those statements in speeches. I think he had just given up on dealing with Quebec in a political way.

I agree with you on First Nations Languages. I cannot go into detail about that since I know little about the numbers of languages and adherents to each. There would be great difficulties in making them official in all but a limited sense and locally, I assume.

[Bakunin]

This conversation is going nowhere. We all know that we will never have chinese or spanish or wathever other language school in canada wich is natural because first its way to complex to manage for a government, 2nd it needs resources like skilled professor with acces to new univesitary program to learn there job and those school need students, 3rd because we already have enough trouble to manage our deficit and pay our debt and its almost impossible to create a public structure enable to support that. The idea is totally uthopic, i never heard a country doing this.

You want something not uthopic ? those people can learn national language wich are french and english just like any other citizen in the world do. Anyway they have to learn one of those language to get a job or just live in the society. If they want chinese course they just have to go to take private lessons just like any other citizen in the world or go to china.

And one last thing, the people who criticize quebec for its law, at least say the truth, English citizen have acces to english school in fact they have high quality school. Mc Gill university wich is the most prestigious university of canada and concordia. The only one who can't acces english school are english family where the father and the mother didn't go to school wich is almost unthinkable or immigrant wich in almost any case has finish school else they would not be pick by immigration canada or there really young children.

which is one of individual rights. Besides, it is to the individual, not to the State, do make those decisions based on what he/she believes serves his/her interests the best.

School are complexe public institution, i don't know if you know or if it work like this in other province but the whole program we get teach in school is planned by the government and ministerial exam are made by the government. The government is inevitably implicate in the education system so individual right end by having to choose between french and english school. I hope you undestand that at least, creating other language school is alot complex

Is an Ontarian choosing a publicly-funded French school lacking in respect for other Ontarians?

If a canadian student learn one of the national language school, its not lacking respect.

[CANADIEN]

stoker,

One more thing you can't get. Your line of questioning is to me like the questioning as a lawyer asking the accused "when did you cease to beat your wife?". It is a COMPARISON. At least, some will get it.

Now, I have responded to your tendencious "why not Mandarin" question. That you don't like the answer doesn't make it non-existant.

And since you got the misguided impression I believe that some languages are superior to others, let me clarify myself. You are totally wrong. As far as I concerned, the notion that a given language is superior to another is ridiculous (to use a polite term). But what do you think? Are some languages superior to other?

As for your belief that I have now found "that language programs are neither fiscally feasable nor prudent", it sure provided me with a good laugh. I haven't gone to that conclusion. I haven't even thought about whether or not it is the case. As I made it clear before, I don't CARE what language the person standing in front of me at the post office will be using. And I don't CARE what language my next door neighbour will have his kids educated in, and how it will be funded.

[CANADIEN]

Bakunin,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that an immigrant whose first language is English could not have his/her kids educated in English in Quebec. Also, parents who have studied in French cannot send their kids to an English school in Quebec (again, if I understand it well). If that's accurate, it is wrong in both cases.

[CANADIEN]

eureka,

I suspected it was about Quebec's law, and I believe Trudeau made a mistake. He should have acted with the full force of the powers greanted by the Constitution to the Federal government, in Quebec, as in Manitoba and everywhere it was needed.

As for First Nation languages, the application of a status as national languages is likely to be more local than country-wide in scope. Unlike French and English, after all, most of these languages are likely to be spoken in specific areas instead than throughout the country. I think many will agree that the right to a given service in a given language can't be exercise where it's unlikely someone would exercise it.

As for official language status, one might want to look into the "national language" designation given in some countries to minority languages. In Switzerland, for example, French, German and Italian are official languages, while Romansh is called a national language, a lesser status in terms of the languages of law, for example, but with similar rights in regards to services and education.

[Bakunin]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that an immigrant whose first language is English could not have his/her kids educated in English in Quebec.

Also, parents who have studied in French cannot send their kids to an English school in Quebec (again, if I understand it well)

french and immigrant have 1 choice, the only one logical and the english community has the right to choose.

here is a website in french where an immigrant explain the law and its history.

http://www.immigrer-contact.com/bestof_tri.../qbc_pol_54.htm

[Stoker]

This conversation is going nowhere. We all know that we will never have chinese or spanish or wathever other language school in canada wich is natural because first its way to complex to manage for a government, 2nd it needs resources like skilled professor with acces to new univesitary program to learn there job and those school need students, 3rd because we already have enough trouble to manage our deficit and pay our debt and its almost impossible to create a public structure enable to support that. The idea is totally uthopic, i never heard a country doing this.

You want something not uthopic ? those people can learn national language wich are french and english just like any other citizen in the world do. Anyway they have to learn one of those language to get a job or just live in the society. If they want chinese course they just have to go to take private lessons just like any other citizen in the world or go to china.

Of course it will never happen, my argument is that these minority groups are not being hurt by it (AFAIK). They still maintain their culture and language with out billions of dollars of federal tax dollars.......so why can't the French?

One more thing you can't get. Your line of questioning is to me like the questioning as a lawyer asking the accused "when did you cease to beat your wife?". It is a COMPARISON. At least, some will get it.

I got it, I just don't see the relevance.

Now, I have responded to your tendencious "why not Mandarin" question. That you don't like the answer doesn't make it non-existant.

Where? Did you mean the entire "national fabric" thing?

And since you got the misguided impression I believe that some languages are superior to others, let me clarify myself. You are totally wrong. As far as I concerned, the notion that a given language is superior to another is ridiculous (to use a polite term). But what do you think? Are some languages superior to other?

To be quite honest, yes and no. Yes in that English is what most international trade/air traffic etc is done in, so since that is the case, I would say yes, that having a grasp of the English language would put sombody on a superior footing when compared to someone without.

No, in that if another language had taken English's "spot" as the language of trade etc, then no, English would not be superior.......the before mentioned language would.

As for your belief that I have now found "that language programs are neither fiscally feasable nor prudent", it sure provided me with a good laugh. I haven't gone to that conclusion. I haven't even thought about whether or not it is the case. As I made it clear before, I don't CARE what language the person standing in front of me at the post office will be using. And I don't CARE what language my next door neighbour will have his kids educated in, and how it will be funded.

SO you wouldn't care if the government made all languages Canada's offical language? You wouldn't mind the increase in taxes and/or the decrease in exsiting services to help fund this zany idea?

[Bakunin]

Of course it will never happen, my argument is that these minority groups are not being hurt by it (AFAIK). They still maintain their culture and language with out billions of dollars of federal tax dollars.......so why can't the French?

by that i asume your saying why french outside quebec and english in quebec, then yes they can survive learning the majority language but for moral and ethic of an artificial society we have gave them choice and now for the same reason we can't take it back. It was not a good idea but it was done and we have to live with it.

[CANADIEN]

stoker,

Superiority, if one looks at the Oxford Dictionary, is the character of what is better. Now, we can say anything we want about how certain languages are spoken more than others, and how better the economical porspects of an individual may become by learning a given language. That does not make any language better - in other words superior - to another. And there is no inherent superiority in any language that explains why it is spoken more than another.

As for the fact I don't care about the personal choices others make regarding languages, it's based on a very simple notion. It's their choice, not mine. The money thing is a secondary factor in determining how this personal choice is to be reflected (or not) in publicly-funded education and programs. Far far more important questions are:

- would not providing those services in a given language affect individual rights negatively;

- would doing it affect anybody's rights negatively;

- would doing it (in the case of schools) facilitate kids learning (there is a whole school of thought in education that education in one's mother tongue provides better learning results, even in the teaching of other languages; I don't know enough to say it is true or not);

- what would be the conseuqences (if any) of doing it on social peace; or what would they be if it wasn't done.

That's what I think the primary factors to consider are. The "how much will it cost?" argument is never the primary factor I use when deciding if governments should do a certain thing or not. And the "we are the one who will pay for it" is not even the beginning of a valid argument.

So, if you want to convince me that there should not be government services in French and English and First Nation languages everywhere in this country there are enough people asking for them, try something else.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear CANADIEN,

Now, we can say anything we want about how certain languages are spoken more than others, and how better the economical porspects of an individual may become by learning a given language. That does not make any language better - in other words superior - to another. And there is no inherent superiority in any language that explains why it is spoken more than another.

Too true. Each have their own merits, and it is mostly geography that dictates what one will be brought up speaking. I learned a bit of Cantonese while I was a cook, and while it is difficult to learn, some of the language is 'superior' to English in ease of use. For example, there is no "Me, Myself and I". There is only 'Ngoh' which means 'the self'. Much more forgiving, grammatically.

[CANADIEN]

Bakunin,

Canada may be an artificial society to you. To me and to most Canadians, it is a country.

The kind of societies you seem to envision looks to me like nation-states. Looks very fine, but when the nation is defined in ethnic, racial, linguistic or religious terms, the result is too often the marginalization of those who do not or cannot fit the model. Never a good thing.

BTW, the problem with the idea the the rights of French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec should have never been acknowledged is that they might not have been acknowledged for those in Quebec either.

[Stoker]

Superiority, if one looks at the Oxford Dictionary, is the character of what is better. Now, we can say anything we want about how certain languages are spoken more than others, and how better the economical porspects of an individual may become by learning a given language. That does not make any language better - in other words superior - to another. And there is no inherent superiority in any language that explains why it is spoken more than another.

You brought up the term superiority, I used it in responce. I think that a person the speaks English does have an advantage over another person that doesn't mind you.

As for the fact I don't care about the personal choices others make regarding languages, it's based on a very simple notion. It's their choice, not mine. The money thing is a secondary factor in determining how this personal choice is to be reflected (or not) in publicly-funded education and programs. Far far more important questions are:

Money is a secondary factor? No money, no programs.....doesn't sound secondary to me.

So, if you want to convince me that there should not be government services in French and English and First Nation languages everywhere in this country there are enough people asking for them, try something else.

I've a question of you: let's say that the Manderain speaking population surpasses that of the French speaking population in Canada, would it not be fair to have Manderain to take French's place?

[Bakunin]

Canada may be an artificial society to you.  To me and to most Canadians, it is a country.

It is a country but its not a natural society and this is a fact. Its composed of more than one society that sadly don't always fit.

The kind of societies you seem to envision looks to me like nation-states.  Looks very fine, but when the nation is defined in ethnic, racial, linguistic or religious terms, the result is too often the marginalization of those who do not or cannot fit the model.  Never a good thing.

Its already like that, quebec do not fit the model, im just honest and I say it loud. The only thing i ask for is an honest canadian political system else ill vote for an independant country.

BTW, the problem with the idea the the rights of French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec should have never been acknowledged is that they might not have been acknowledged for those in Quebec either.

Im just saying the sad truth. Its cruel i know and i would not fight for that but its the truth. Don't you agree that if you would have learn english at your birth and went to english school evrything would have been easyer ?

[CANADIEN]

Of course Bakunin.

Things would be a lot easier if have turned Anglophone. In fact, things would have turned a lot easier if the Franco had all assimilated a long time ago. Or is it if the Agnlos in Quebec just shut up and did it in French.

But let's stop there. Things would be a lot easirer for gays in they remained in the closet. For Jews if they converted. For Afro-Americans if they had stayed in their place. For immigrants if they stayed home.

Yes indeed, things would be a lot easier for everyone if they did what the bigots, racists, religious zealots expect from them.

Or, since life is difficult anyway, perhaps people should decide for themselves who they are ans what they do, exercise the full extent of their rights where, when and how they see fit, and tell those who don't like it to get lost.

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

Societal issues, like what government should or should not do, are far too complex to be reduced to a question of dollars and cents.

Besides, experience has shown me that, when people say "I don't want the government to do it because it would cost too much", they often mean "I don't want the government to do it, therefore it would cost too much". Money is rarely the sole reason. So tell me Stoker, what is your other reason?

[Stoker]

Societal issues, like what government should or should not do, are far too complex to be reduced to a question of dollars and cents.

The reasons may or may not be based on dollars and cents, but the ablitiy to carry out any such plans is very much tied to what funds are avalibale.

Besides, experience has shown me that, when people say "I don't want the government to do it because it would cost too much", they often mean "I don't want the government to do it, therefore it would cost too much". Money is rarely the sole reason. So tell me Stoker, what is your other reason?

Money is the only reason, in that the money that we spend on bilingual programs could be going towards more pressing needs that would benefit all Canadians, not just a certain cultural group.