Canadians needs a bilingual education

[Stoker]

Stoker! Democracy is when power is vested in all the people. That is not the same as "the majority." That is why the importance of protecting minority rights is paramount. It is more important than "majority" rule and without it there is no democracy.

Do all minorities have the right to be educated in their native tongue, at taxpayers expense? Infact, show me another nation on this planet that deems it a right.

As I said before, I've no problem at all if a minority group wants to teach their children in their native language, but it should be either in a private school or in a public school, if the majority within that province are willing to float the bill.

As I said before, a society that tramples on individual rights because the majority wishes to do so may look like democracy, but it is nothing more than a dictatorship by majority fiat.

I'll repeat the same question that i asked of eureka

"Do all minorities have the right to be educated in their native tongue, at taxpayers expense?"

Your eyes may to be open, but there is nothing unnatural about French-speaking communities in the Maritimes older than Quebec and that survived deportation. In communities in the Windsor area that existed before Chicoutimi. In communities throughout the West. Or in English-speaking communities in Coaticook, in Gaspé, in Trois-Rivières.

If there are that many French-speaking communities in the Maritimes, with my idea, they could pay for French education at the provincial level.

WRT small "pockets" of French speakers outside of Quebec, their schools could be private or purhaps the additional funding could be paid for at the municipal level.

Some will say that going that way makes this country "abnormal". I will take it any day before what you, Argus and Stoker have to offer.

Look around you. Everything outside of Ontario is not peachy keen Your "abnormal" country, as it is, is on borrowed time. Quebec will go, then hopefully the West won't be far behind.

We just have to look at russia and tchetchenia, we all know that there will be terrorist act and violence has long aas the russian keep refusing tchetchenia independance. There is no point for russia to continue fighting out there but blindness and hate.

Perhaps another example to decribe Canada would be the formor Yugoslavia.

[maplesyrup]

Our Canadian Constitution guarantees minority language rights, which includes schooling for minorities. Read the whole thing!

[Stoker]

Our Canadian Constitution guarantees minority language rights, which includes schooling for minorities. Read the whole thing!

So if the Dashnyamd family moves to Vanacouver from Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia, young Genghis can be taught in Khalkha Mongol at any public school?

Now perhaps MS, you will try and answer, why it is that minorities are guaranted language rights? IOW, why should I pay for a "special type of schooling", when there is a perfectly good English public school?

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

It is the right of each and every Canadian to receive an publicly funded education in English or in French as they individually decide. To which I will add (with my apologies to the First Nations) that this right extends to First Nation languages. The only acceptable limitation is whether or not there are enough people in a given location who wants to be educated in the language in minority locally to have a school.

Will I need to repeat myself yet again, or will you get it one of these days?

This right exists because those languages are all part of our country's national fabric, what makes Canada different from other countries. This is an undisputable fact. I believe it also can't be disputed that Mandarin, Italian or Punjabi (to take three languages at random) are not part of our national fabric. Some of course will call be hypocrite for saying this, but coming from bigots...

Anyone thinks I am wrong about those three languages? I am open to arguments that will change my mind. Not notions of majority will, but a demonstration that they are part of our national fabric.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear CANADIEN,

Anyone thinks I am wrong about those three languages? I am open to arguments that will change my mind. Not notions of majority will, but a demonstration that they are part of our national fabric.

I will take up your gauntlet, CANADIEN.

Yes, I believe they are part of our national fabric. While history will show that the English and the French fought, what some would say, the battle for Canada. One won, one lost that battle. But they chose, through the drafting of the constitution, to create the notion of what is Canada together.

Canada is based, therefore, (and to the chagrin of some) on acceptance and inclusion, rather than on 'Vae victis' and exclusion. North America is built solely on immigration. (To the chagrin of the 'Original Peoples!)

All are Canadians, all (well, most) are contributing their taxes, efforts and delicious ethnic food to make Canada the great country that it is. If Mandarin, etc is to be excluded from the 'social fabric' by way of disallowing them to help shape the future, who wields the right? The English and the French decided they would both be included in the constitution, so who are they to shut the door? It should not be acceptable for only one of the two 'founding cutures' to decide on their own who else 'can join the club', and it would be even less 'right' for them both to enjoy the privilege and right of inclusion and deny the rest.

[CANADIEN]

maplesyrup,

Isn't it funny that someone who can't accept difference and individual rights, hence minority rights, would try to entrap you with a question on minorities?

Let HIM prove that the hypothetical individual he refers too is a member of a linguistic minority as would be defined under let's constitutional law or international conventions.

[caesar]

We darn well better make Mandarin and Cantonese part of our language training. If we don't get busy and make a real effort to attract trade with China; we will be left out of the loop. China trade with the USA is on track to surpass Canadian/ Usa trade within the decade; so it was said in our local newspaper

[Guest eureka]

You simply do not seem to get it, Stoker. This is not about all minorities. It is about the two cultures that shared in the founding of the nation and the equality of rights of those.

There are many countries where there are more than one official language and where schooling is avaolable as a question of choice. Only in Canada amongst democratic countries is this choice denied.

And, it is a blot on our democratic claims.

[CANADIEN]

thelonius,

It takes more than being spoken by taxpayers or providers of fine cooking for a language to be considered part of what define us as Canadians.

IMHO, First Nation languages are part of the national fabric because they are the national languages of communities whose historical territory is (or at least in part) in Canada. On those territories, the languages in questions are (or historically were) the common language of those born or joigning the said community.

At first glance, it would seem that neither English or French meet that criteria. However, English and French communities have historically established themselves (unfortunately, at the expense of First Nations). These communities are different (more in the case of French communities, but that's a bit besides the point) from those of the same language in Europe.

To various degrees, in parts of the country where they were the majority, their language became the common language for them and those joigning their community. These communities created their own schools, publicly funded (that is, before government-funded education, community-funded).

To me, that's what makes all those languages part of our national fabric. The history of Mandarin of this country is not similar to that of First Nation languages, French or English. If I am wrong on that, correct me. If we need another criteria to establish a given language is indeed part of waht define us as Canada, explain it.

[JWayne625]

Healthcare is supposed to be a right as well, but government's right across this country are continually cutting back on services and resources. Emergency Room Physician's Association of Canada contends that long waiting lists for procedures nad services at Emergency Departments are a direct result of the closure of hospital beds right across this country, yet the various jurisdictions continue to cut. According to them we have lost 40% of our bed capacity in the last few years in our hospitals. However Bilingualism seems to be somewhat of a sacred cow. Cuts are made to every other service but for God's sake don't dare reduce the funding for bilingualism. I for one think that adequate funding for healthcare and a good many other iniatives trump the need for bilingualism funding every time.

A province the size of New Brunswick continues to slash and burn every program nad raise every fee and tax yet not one cent has been chopped from bilingual iniatives. Our education department even went out and purchased school buses specifically for French speaking children living in predominately English speaking areas of the Province, so they wouldn't be corrupted by having to associate with English speaking children on the way to and from school.

I say again, bilingualism in the only "Officially Bilingual Province in Canada has become instead segregation based on language. How is racial harmony supposed to prevail when our own government is promoting the segregation of our children? This is definitely not what I would call encouragement for the learning of the other language.

[Bakunin]

You want Quebec's sovereignty, Bakunin? Try convincing the 60%+ of Quebecers who consider Canada to be their country.

Im really flexible, i think that it is a complexe political issue and that it can be resolve in many way and i hope that canada and quebec and other society can work a winning-winning agreement but like i say im flexible, ill vote for sovreignty if there is no other way around.

Or you can try convince me that it is right for the Quebec government to limit access to English language schools (if you agree with that, of course). Those who advocated closing publicly-funded French schools in the rest of Canada keep failing to make their "point", so its time for others to try.

I support the law but i think it must be flexible. English quebecers are allowed to go to english school and i agree on that and immigrant must be teach french, i totally agree with that too... Unfortunatly there are always some rare troubling case from both side in canada but i think thats why we need flexible law.

I will only add this to what I have already said. Quebecers have the right to choose by themselves, independently from government interference, to choose a publicly-funded schooling in French OR English, not only as Canadians, but also as QUEBECERS.

I agree except for Immigrants. As long as thei learn the basic of the majority language for respect and survival wich they do naturally.

By the way i dont think a school weither its french or english Canada cost more money to administrate. At lest not a significant amount. The point is that if you are a french in ontario, you learn english even if you go to a french school so their is no need in ontario to become completly billingual like the dream of maplesyrup

[CANADIEN]

ceasar,

Teaching of Mandarin as a second language in English-speaking schools could indeed be a great idea, and I most certainly wouldn't oppose it. I could argue however that it would be even better in the larger schools (more students, more possibility for options) to offer a wide variety of languages and let students choose.

I would even suggest that in English schools in Quebec, a very good choice as a second language would be the one in which students are likely to do quite a bit of shopping, socializing, working as long as they live in Quebec... French.

In the case of French language schools, the evident choice as a second language would be English, wouldn't you agree?

[CANADIEN]

Bakunin,

Apart from some rights specifically tied with citizenship (right to vote mainly), immigrants are IMHO entitled to the exact same rights as those born in the country. Especially those who become citizens... one is a citizen or one is not.

As for whether or not somebody needs to be bilingual anywhere in the country, that's that person's business. Doesn't change lingusitic rights.

[Bakunin]

Apart from some rights specifically tied with citizenship (right to vote mainly), immigrants are IMHO entitled to the exact same rights as those born in the country. Especially those who become citizens... one is a citizen or one is not

immigrant must integrate the society, the society in quebec is french so they must learn french just like if i imigrate into the us, i will go to an english school, well its the same thing. We the french are already a minority in canada we wont work on becoming a minority in our own province, don't ask us to do that...

As for whether or not somebody needs to be bilingual anywhere in the country, that's that person's business.  Doesn't change lingusitic rights.

I was talking about the system. Like road sign and evrything.

[Guest eureka]

Bakunin, if you emigrate to the USA, you will have the right to be educated as you choose. You may choose English for practical reasons but nobody is going to force you.

Then, Quebec is a partially French society, not a French society. Before the language laws, Montreal was the second largest English speaking city in Canada. English speakers voted with their feet which is fortunate for Quebec. If the 401 had not been there, there would, inecitably have been a civil war that could well have resulted in the end of tolerance for French in Quebec.

[CANADIEN]

Close to 80% of Quebec's population speaks French as its first language, Bakunin. Despite the fact most immigrants over the past two centuries chose English. Letting immigrants enjoy the same rights as other residents (and in particular, letting those who become citizens enjoy the same rights as other citizens) is unlikely to result in French-speaking Quebecers becoming a numerical minority in Quebec for a long long time.

As for the "system". Access to government services in English or French is the right of any Canadian.

[Stoker]

This right exists because those languages are all part of our country's national fabric, what makes Canada different from other countries. This is an undisputable fact. I believe it also can't be disputed that Mandarin, Italian or Punjabi (to take three languages at random) are not part of our national fabric. Some of course will call be hypocrite for saying this, but coming from bigots...

Who's the bigot again?

I don't care if people in Quebec speak French or not, what I do care about is if they are doing it on my dime. I'm frugal, some might say cheap, but I'm not a bigot like you!

I wonder how many Chinese-Canadians, who had ancestors work and die on the railroad feel that they are not part of the "national fabric".......etc.

You see, after these pages of chasing our tails around in circles, you have finally let your true colours be shown......that being one of a bigot.

My question to you, In your opinion, when will "Mandarin, Italian or Punjabi" become part of our national fabric? 10 years? 50 years? 100? 1000? never?

And if, in your opinion "Mandarin, Italian or Punjabi" do become part of the national fabric, will they too be entitled to schooling in their own tonuge at the taxpayers expense?

And then when do we cut-off language training to certain groups?

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

I expected exactly this coming from you. And as I expected, your accusation makes me laugh. And so does your use of a principle you don't believe in (rights) to try justifying its removal from a country you don't want to exist (Canada).

I am glad however, to see that there are facts you know. Such as how Chinese-Canadians contributed, too often by the brutal (accidental) shortening of their life, to building our country (our meaning, of course, the country of all Canadians). And since you know that, you sure know that the thanks they got were for the longer time laws that denied them the right to become citizens, head taxes destined to discourage them from settling here, measures to prevent them from bringing their families, racial (or should I say racist?) immigration quotas. All laws voted by elected representatives of the majority, strongly supported by the majority. And I am most certainly glad to see that, unless it concerns languages, you are not ready to back your "principle" to the full extent, that is that a majority will justifies trampling on individual rights.

Now, to people who can get it (that excludes you, Stoker). If my criteria to define our national languages (a clearer term to define what I have in mind) is wrong, please tell me what better criteria could be used) If you think that a certain language meet or does not meet that criteria, say why.

Be sure of one thing. No matter whether I think you're right or wrong. you will NEVER see me oppose public funding of schools in a certain language on the ground I don't want or don't need it or that funding would come from my taxes. And I have better things to do when waiting in line at the post office than to object to a client asking for stamps in let's say, Catalan (please feel free to substitute any other language) and the clerk responding in the same (therefore, as we all notice, providing a publicly-funded service in that language).

[CANADIEN]

Funny, isn't it, that some of the people who don't want their fellow Canadians to be able to access goernment services or receive publicly-funded education in French are quick to say they don't mind people in Quebec speaking it.

First note that some of them say Quebec, not Canada. Just a distraction, or a slip of the keyboard revealing that they just don't want French around them? Not accusing anyone, by the way.

And, not knowing whether or not they'd do it, I certainly wouldn't accusing them of being the kind of people who would, let's say, leaving of threatening message on a voice mail because the greeting is in English and French, question the mental health of someone who seeks services in French in a post office, or rudely interrupt a conversation in a bar because it's in French. or start singing our national anthem the second they are a conversation in French (all things, ladies and gentlemen, I have personnally experienced). One thing is sure, when that happen, I wasn't in the presence of members of "Canadian Parents for French".

BTW, if French schools exist at "taxpayers' expense" (as opposed to a more accurate description of reality, that is they are publicly-funded because Canadian have a right to attend them if they individually choose to), does that mean I don't pay taxes?

[Bakunin]

Close to 80% of Quebec's population speaks French as its first language, Bakunin. Despite the fact most immigrants over the past two centuries chose English. Letting immigrants enjoy the same rights as other residents (and in particular, letting those who become citizens enjoy the same rights as other citizens) is unlikely to result in French-speaking Quebecers becoming a numerical minority in Quebec for a long long time.

Most immigrant who come in canada don't even know that in quebec we speak french, then most of the immigrant in quebec immigrate in montreal.

You may find this stupid but if they dont learn french they can't get job then they can't function in the society and they have a lot of trouble to adapt wich is bad for evryone. You should know that ! you had to learn english to function in ontario ? then if anyone want to learn a 2nd or a 3rd or a 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 languages its superbe and we already can at least in quebec we can i dont know in rest of canada.I went to English immersion program and it was quite interesting, my sisters learned spanish. You know, their is a study that proof that someone who learn more than one language has less chance to have alzeimer.

I think that learning french if you live in quebec is just a mark of respect, then its because you don't have choice to integrate the society and to get a job.

[Argus]

It is the right of each and every Canadian to receive an publicly funded education in English or in French as they individually decide.

Except in Quebec, the only province where the Francophones make the rules.

[CANADIEN]

Bakunin,

You may not have noticed, but I said little about the issue of what language a person "needs" to know. There is no doubt, after all, that it is advantageous for someone living in Quebec to know French and for someone living in Ontario to know English. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental question, which is one of individual rights. Besides, it is to the individual, not to the State, do make those decisions based on what he/she believes serves his/her interests the best.

As for the respect argument, I have heard it time and time again, and I am so glad I can finally ask the question I have always wanted to ask in return: is an Ontarian choosing a publicly-funded French school lacking in respect for other Ontarians?

[Bro]

You need to kiss my ass.

Anywhere in Canada there is free choice of schooling except in Quebec.

Time for spineless English Canadians to start sticking up for

their quickly diminishing rights,in Quebec and all of Canada.

When Quebec stops being racist and except who they are in this country,then they can preach to the rest of

Canada,or at least what is left of it,about what is wrong or right.

[CANADIEN]

The right thing to do, Bro, is to respect the right of all Canadians to choose a school in the Canadian language is their choice, that is either a French, English or First Nation language school.

The wrong thing is to take away that right, like the Quebec governtment currently does and some people on this board would do.

Now tell me, Bro, what rights is an English-speaking Canadian leaving outside Quebec losing (except the unacceptable language discrimination in Quebec)?

[Stoker]

CANADIEN, quite skirting the question, since you beleive it the right of Canadians to have "language rights", why shouldn't the Chinese Canadians, Indian Canadian etc... be entilted to the same "rights" as French and English speakers?

Now come on oh wise one, tell us why that is?

*Then I will turn your answer around on you, and use that as another reason to oppose fedral funds going towards bilingual education.*