Did you Support Israel Attack on Palestine

Hudson Jones · November 18, 2012

But not Yom Kippur, 6 Day War or Mufti big...lol.

Sure. Of course those count. Anyone ever deny those events and people?

Another problem when discussing the issue, misinformation and problems with facts aside, is people who try to hammer on events and issues from the past that happened on one side, without being able to discuss other events and issues that happened on the other side(s), This end up creating a different image of the situation.

For the sake of not writing novels and getting into another cycle of history lessons and perspectives, I'm more than happy to discuss the issues surrounding the present events which do not start with "Hamas is shooting rockets into Israel".

Bonam · November 18, 2012

For the sake of not writing novels and getting into another cycle of history lessons and perspectives, I'm more than happy to discuss the issues surrounding the present events which do not start with "Hamas is shooting rockets into Israel".

Hahaha. So you want to discuss present events while completely ignoring how said "present events" started.

I thought someone just said:

people who try to hammer on events and issues from the past that happened on one side, without being able to discuss other events and issues that happened on the other side(s)

I guess you were describing yourself.

bush_cheney2004 · November 18, 2012

But Hamas is shooting rockets into Israel. Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel for a long time. Why does Hamas shoot rockets into Israel? What did Hamas expect Israel to do after Hamas shoots rockets into Israel? Is Hamas shooting rockets into Israel recognized as an international symbol of peace?

DogOnPorch · November 18, 2012

HJ: Another problem when discussing the issue, misinformation and problems with facts aside, is people who try to hammer on events and issues from the past that happened on one side, without being able to discuss other events and issues that happened on the other side(s), This end up creating a different image of the situation.

You perhaps worry that Israel decided the time was right to deal with Hamas once and for all. Perhaps it is. Perhaps something will save their cowardly hides. You'll perhaps make a fuss about kids dying and the like. Up the road in Syria, the real boil is coming to a head. By now, I imagine over 100 thousand casualties...killed, wounded, missing. Plus, news that the whole gang of Assad yahoos plan naval exercises with their closest arms dealers. You'll perhaps then claim the events aren't connected thus the focus on Israel. But yeah...let's drag out a few more dead kids for the cameras as Hamas likes to do.

Edited November 18, 2012 by DogOnPorch

DogOnPorch · November 18, 2012

I might point out that this Israel-Hamas affair could well be cover for the boys to deal with the wee rebel problem up in Syria.

DogOnPorch · November 18, 2012

But Hamas is shooting rockets into Israel. Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel for a long time. Why does Hamas shoot rockets into Israel? What did Hamas expect Israel to do after Hamas shoots rockets into Israel? Is Hamas shooting rockets into Israel recognized as an international symbol of peace?

I think they were expecting something. perhaps not quite this much and a dead leader...but something.

Bonam · November 18, 2012

I think they were expecting something. perhaps not quite this much and a dead leader...but something.

They were expecting the same thing as always: a few new photos of dead children to use for their propaganda campaign. And, as always, the world's media is eating it up.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Bonam

DogOnPorch · November 18, 2012

They were expecting the same thing as always: a few new photos of dead children to use for their propaganda campaign. And, as always, the world's media is eating it up.

Perhaps. But Syria is coming unwound and Iran is feeling the pinch. It's not out of the question that Hamas was told to create a diversion while Syria gets quickly sewn-up with outside help. Plus...the Emir of Qatar did show up with a BIG suitcase full of money.

Edited November 19, 2012 by DogOnPorch

Hudson Jones · November 19, 2012

You perhaps worry that Israel decided the time was right to deal with Hamas once and for all. Perhaps it is. Perhaps something will save their cowardly hides. You'll perhaps make a fuss about kids dying and the like. Up the road in Syria, the real boil is coming to a head. By now, I imagine over 100 thousand casualties...killed, wounded, missing. Plus, news that the whole gang of Assad yahoos plan naval exercises with their closest arms dealers. You'll perhaps then claim the events aren't connected thus the focus on Israel. But yeah...let's drag out a few more dead kids for the cameras as Hamas likes to do.

In some ways, Syria's Assad is a steroid version of Israel's Bibi. The similarities are that he is using his big weapons to continue his control and silence the people who want freedom and justice. The differences are that Assad is doing this to its own people, while Bibi is doing it to those he is occupying. The other difference is that we don't support Assad's actions, but we support Bibi's actions.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Hudson Jones

Bonam · November 19, 2012

Perhaps. But Syria is coming unwound and Iran is feeling the pinch. It's not out of the question that Hamas was told to create a diversion while Syria gets quickly sewn-up with outside help. Plus...the Emir of Qatar did show up with a BIG suitcase full of money.

Possible too. Though from what I've seen, real life terrorists are a lot less clever than we see portrayed in TV shows and movies. I think a coordinated campaign to provide a distraction for Syria may well be outside their organizational abilities. Not to mention, the "international community" has pretty much been ignoring Syria without any special distractions.

Sleipnir · November 19, 2012

They were expecting the same thing as always: a few new photos of dead children to use for their propaganda campaign. And, as always, the world's media is eating it up.

Which is a secondary reason why I'm trying my hardest to ignore the Israel-Palestine conflict.

DogOnPorch · November 19, 2012

Possible too. Though from what I've seen, real life terrorists are a lot less clever than we see portrayed in TV shows and movies. I think a coordinated campaign to provide a distraction for Syria may well be outside their organizational abilities. Not to mention, the "international community" has pretty much been ignoring Syria without any special distractions.

You did catch the part about Russia, China and Iran coming to Syria for 'naval maneuvers' for a 'few weeks'...their words.

Bonam · November 19, 2012

You did catch the part about Russia, China and Iran coming to Syria for 'naval maneuvers' for a 'few weeks'...their words.

I saw it, but I don't see much significance. Russia and China are content to prevent measures from being taken at the UN, they aren't gonna intervene military themselves. Maybe Russia will transfer some more arms to Syria, but they've been doing that all along anyway. As for Iran, I'm sure it's already been doing all it can to help Assad.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Bonam

DogOnPorch · November 19, 2012

I saw it, but I don't see much significance. Russia and China are content to prevent measures from being taken at the UN, they aren't gonna intervene military themselves. Maybe Russia will transfer some more arms to Syria, but they've been doing that all along anyway. As for Iran, I'm sure it's already been doing all it can to help Assad.

Edited November 19, 2012 by DogOnPorch

dre · November 19, 2012

Care to elaborate on this idea of being "proportional"? Is there some inherent fairness if 3 Israelis die that 3 Palestinians should die? This is not some eye for an eye prehistoric court of law. The purpose of Israel's strikes is to destroy Hamas' ability to launch rockets. It is not about being "proportional". You should review your underlying premise here, because it is completely flawed.

Nobody on earth with more than about 5 braincells believes these strikes will destroy Hamas' ability to launch rockets. Not Israel, not anyone. They respond because Israelis will be angry if they dont, but just like invading lebanon failed to crush the PLO, or Lebanon Israel knows it will not work.

And the reason to be carefull of killing civilians is because absolutely nothing helps Hamas more politically.

Bonam · November 19, 2012

Nobody on earth with more than about 5 braincells believes these strikes will destroy Hamas' ability to launch rockets. Not Israel, not anyone. They respond because Israelis will be angry if they dont, but just like invading lebanon failed to crush the PLO, or Lebanon Israel knows it will not work.

And the reason to be carefull of killing civilians is because absolutely nothing helps Hamas more politically.

Oh I fully agree they should be careful about killing civilians. Clearly, the less they kill the better, both from an ethical stance as well as when considering what is beneficial for Israel: less civilians killed generally means less international gnashing of teeth.

But as for the strikes destroying Hamas's ability to launch rockets, that is exactly what they do. If you destroy rockets, the facilities where they're stored, the tunnels through which they're brought in, the sites from which they are launched, and the people that do the launching, you are gonna reduce how many rockets get launched at you. Seems pretty straightforward. And no, they might not completely destroy Hamas' ability to launch all rockets, but they will likely significantly reduce it, just as they seem to have to do every couple years.

Hudson Jones · November 19, 2012

But as for the strikes destroying Hamas's ability to launch rockets, that is exactly what they do. If you destroy rockets, the facilities where they're stored, the tunnels through which they're brought in, the sites from which they are launched, and the people that do the launching, you are gonna reduce how many rockets get launched at you. Seems pretty straightforward. And no, they might not completely destroy Hamas' ability to launch all rockets, but they will likely significantly reduce it, just as they seem to have to do every couple years.

How well did that work out the first time?

Hamas will remain, and they will re-stock and if the opportunity rises, we will see this again.

An Israeli history teacher from Southern Israel, on the border with Gaza, wrote a few days ago:

Does defending the well being of citizens mean a war of armageddon every few years? Hasn’t any politician ever heard of the expression ‘long-term planning?’ If you want to defend me – then please: Don’t send the Israel Defense Forces for us in order to “win.” Start thinking about the long term and not just about the next election.

DogOnPorch · November 19, 2012

Oh I fully agree they should be careful about killing civilians. Clearly, the less they kill the better, both from an ethical stance as well as when considering what is beneficial for Israel: less civilians killed generally means less international gnashing of teeth.

But as for the strikes destroying Hamas's ability to launch rockets, that is exactly what they do. If you destroy rockets, the facilities where they're stored, the tunnels through which they're brought in, the sites from which they are launched, and the people that do the launching, you are gonna reduce how many rockets get launched at you. Seems pretty straightforward. And no, they might not completely destroy Hamas' ability to launch all rockets, but they will likely significantly reduce it, just as they seem to have to do every couple years.

Heh...we're not nearly so careful re: civilians in places like Afghanistan as Israel. I recall a German or Dutch pilot taking out nearly 100 all by himself after the Taliban stole a gas tanker. Ooooops...

November 19, 2012

And the reason to be carefull of killing civilians is because absolutely nothing helps Hamas more politically.

And this is the bottom line. How much do you think Hamas cares about those Palestinian deaths - beyond what it will do for them politically? Personally, I think they hope for such deaths...........

Bonam · November 19, 2012

How well did that work out the first time?

It worked out the way it always does: stopped Hamas from launching rockets for a few years.

Hamas will remain, and they will re-stock and if the opportunity rises, we will see this again.

Of course. And very likely in 2015 or 2016 Israel will once again have to do strikes in Gaza to once again prevent/dissuade rockets from being launched.

An Israeli history teacher from Southern Israel, on the border with Gaza, wrote a few days ago:

I happen to agree that sending in the army into Gaza to do ground operations would be a bad idea. Surgical air strikes are sufficient to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

DogOnPorch · November 19, 2012

And this is the bottom line. How much do you think Hamas cares about those Palestinian deaths - beyond what it will do for them politically? Personally, I think they hope for such deaths...........

There'd be a long snaking column of folks walking south out of Gaza City right now if they cared.

Bonam · November 19, 2012

Heh...we're not nearly so careful re: civilians in places like Afghanistan as Israel. I recall a German or Dutch pilot taking out nearly 100 all by himself after the Taliban stole a gas tanker. Ooooops...

Israel is in a much weaker diplomatic position than we are, and hence has to be a lot more careful than we do, in order not to alienate what international support it has.

DogOnPorch · November 19, 2012

Israel is in a much weaker diplomatic position than we are, and hence has to be a lot more careful than we do, in order not to alienate what international support it has.

Israel's PR department amounts to a sack of hammers dropped on yer foot.

bush_cheney2004 · November 19, 2012

.....I happen to agree that sending in the army into Gaza to do ground operations would be a bad idea. Surgical air strikes are sufficient to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

I concur, but would add mines and cluster munitions for area denial and concentration of target sites for such strikes. Israel doesn't have to wait for rocket attacks to begin given the chronic nature of the threat.

Bonam · November 19, 2012

Israel's PR department amounts to a sack of hammers dropped on yer foot.

As history shows, Jews have never seemingly been very good at PR. Otherwise they might have figured out over the last 2000 years how to stop being everyone's scapegoat for everything.