Did you Support Israel Attack on Palestine

[Moonlight Graham]

You can't just put that on Israel. Part of that is the way Israel does things within Israel vs. the way Hamas does things within Palestine, too.

What do you mean?

[bush_cheney2004]

As history shows, Jews have never seemingly been very good at PR. Otherwise they might have figured out over the last 2000 years how to stop being everyone's scapegoat for everything.

Perhaps not, but when one counts contributions to the world from "Jews" vs. some other groups, the record speaks for itself regardless of PR skills.

[Bonam]

Perhaps not, but when one counts contributions to the world from "Jews" vs. some other groups, the record speaks for itself regardless of PR skills.

Of course.

[DogOnPorch]

Bonam: Surgical air strikes are sufficient to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

Ameer: Here...take my cell phone.

Fariq: No...you take my cell phone!

(both throw cell phones)

[DogOnPorch]

As history shows, Jews have never seemingly been very good at PR. Otherwise they might have figured out over the last 2000 years how to stop being everyone's scapegoat for everything.

That's more to do with certain passages in the Bible and Koran that reference Jews in an unkindly light. It wasn't until 1965, I think, that the RC church dropped the Christ Blood Libel officially. The Koran...well...that's fairly static. I've yet to see the King James Koran. It says Jews are apes and pigs and such.

[Moonlight Graham]

But keep in mind the fact that the Gazan leadership is deliberately launching its attacks from civilian areas in order to draw those casualties. Israel cannot be rendered defenseless by the way Hamas chooses to mount its attacks, and the fact that unlike the Israelis they deliberately put their own civilians in harm's way.

This is true. It is a tactic that they use to win, and is arguable effective.

It is a very hard balance for Israel. They have to defend themselves & their citizens from the rocket attacks, but they shouldn't be hammering Gaza at a vastly disproportional rate and avoid civilian casualties...even though destroying the rocket and other facilities will lead to civilian deaths and it will take a lot of deaths to get rid of the rocket threats.

Those rockets are very ineffective at hurting/killing people, so I'd argue they are more of a terror tactic than anything. I'm also not taking any sides of Palestine vs Israel because they both have their victim narratives and hate that prevents peace and leads them to murder each other. It's also hard to say "Gaza started this" because in Gaza's point of view their rockets are in response to grievances by Israel, and then Israel strikes Gaza, and then Gaza will strike Israel in the future and the cycle of idiocy continues...

[Guest American Woman]

What do you mean?

I mean that Israel protects its citizens while Hamas puts Palestinian citizens in harm's way.

[Moonlight Graham]

Care to elaborate on this idea of being "proportional"? Is there some inherent fairness if 3 Israelis die that 3 Palestinians should die? This is not some eye for an eye prehistoric court of law. The purpose of Israel's strikes is to destroy Hamas' ability to launch rockets. It is not about being "proportional". You should review your underlying premise here, because it is completely flawed.

Well, they can't be proportional because getting rid of the rockets (which is fair) means killing more than 3 people. Israelis shouldn't have to live under the fear of rocket attacks, even though they are mostly ineffective and rarely kill many people So ya what I said doesn't really make sense in this particular case so I guess you're right.

[bush_cheney2004]

I mean that Israel protects its citizens while Hamas puts Palestinian citizens in harm's way.

Good point...often lost on the Palestinian supporters.

[DogOnPorch]

Good point...often lost on the Palestinian supporters.

If you recall, Hanoi...serious about winning...or at least surviving the B-52 raids...made sure there was enough shelters for the entire population of the city. Other cities buried themselves completely underground...immune from 1000lb bombs.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Palestinians will dig tunnels for rockets, but not civil defense.

[jbg]

In some ways, Syria's Assad is a steroid version of Israel's Bibi. The similarities are that he is using his big weapons to continue his control and silence the people who want freedom and justice. The differences are that Assad is doing this to its own people, while Bibi is doing it to those he is occupying. The other difference is that we don't support Assad's actions, but we support Bibi's actions.

There is a huge difference. And Gaza is not occupied territory any more.

[dre]

There is a huge difference. And Gaza is not occupied territory any more.

No its a territory under seige / blockade, and anyone who expects them to just peacefully accept that is not to bright.

[jbg]

No its a territory under seige / blockade, and anyone who expects them to just peacefully accept that is not to bright.

Maybe if they'd stop fighting they'd be under siege the way that Port Roberts, Washington and Angle Country, Minnesota are "besieged." (link to article#1) and (link to article #2) Maybe they could enjoy the same life style. Or the same way Alaska residents live. Maybe the residents of Port Roberts, Angle Country and Alaska don't fire rockets into Canada regularly.

[Guest Derek L]

No its a territory under seige / blockade, and anyone who expects them to just peacefully accept that is not to bright.

You understand Gaza shares a border with Egypt right? And the West Bank, one with Jordan……Come to think of it, why doesn’t Hamas launch attacks from the West Bank?

[Merlin]

You understand Gaza shares a border with Egypt right? And the West Bank, one with Jordan……Come to think of it, why doesn’t Hamas launch attacks from the West Bank?

PLO controls the West bank. Hamas only controls Gaza Strip.

[Guest Derek L]

PLO controls the West bank. Hamas only controls Gaza Strip.

I know.

[Merlin]

I know.

So you have your answer

[dre]

On another note, one thing complicating things in Gaza, is the growth of jihadist groups in Gaza that are not under the control of Hamas.

Recently Hisham al-Saedni was killed by an Israeli strike while on the back of a motorcycle. He was a Salafi-jihadist, and leader of a group called Al-Tawhid wa al-Jihad. This is a group that organizes a lot of rocket attacks against Israel, and they are at odds with Hamas, who they claim are "too moderate". Al-Saedni was arrested and jailed by Hamas in 2011.

Al-Tawhid wa al-Jihad subsequently kidnapped Vittorio Arrigoni a pro palestinian activist, and threatened to kill him if Hamas did not release al-Saedni. Hamas did not comply and Vittorio Arrigoni was killed. Since then Hamas, has either hunted down or killed all the Salafi-jihadists involved, but eventually released Al-Saedni due to public outcry. Theres speculation that Hamas actually tipped off Israel as to Al-Saedni's whereabouts and helped them kill him.

THe reason I mentioned this is that people in this thread, most of them who know next to nothing about whats really going on over there beyond regurgitating either pro or israel slogans and sentiment attribute ALL of these rocket attacks to Hamas. But theres a number of different Islamic Jihadi groups now operating in Gaza that Hamas does not control that are organizing rocket attacks against Israel. Al-Tawhid wa al-Jihad is actually an Al-qeada group that was formerly operating in Iraq.

This puts Hamas in a tenuous position. Armed struggle against Israel is a major part of their platform, and if they hunt these groups down and kill them or arrest them (which they have been doing to one degree or another) they risk being seen by people in Gaza as Israels "police".

These various Jihadi groups are there to cause trouble, and they are a relatively new and potentially problematic participant in CONFLICT: DIRTFARM HOLY LAND.

Edited November 19, 2012 by dre

[Bonam]

This puts Hamas in a tenuous position. Armed struggle against Israel is a major part of their platform, and if they hunt these groups down and kill them or arrest them (which they have been doing to one degree or another) they risk being seen by people in Gaza as Israels "police".

It's the same story repeating itself as before. When Fatah tried to actually rule a territory and realized there is more to government than ineffectually trying to kill Israelis, out comes Hamas claiming they are too moderate. Now Hamas is trying to rule a territory, and realizing the same thing, and out come the groups saying Hamas is too moderate.

[Bonam]

Well, they can't be proportional because getting rid of the rockets (which is fair) means killing more than 3 people. Israelis shouldn't have to live under the fear of rocket attacks, even though they are mostly ineffective and rarely kill many people So ya what I said doesn't really make sense in this particular case so I guess you're right.

Glad to see you are open to reasoned exchange of ideas on this topic

[dre]

It's the same story repeating itself as before. When Fatah tried to actually rule a territory and realized there is more to government than ineffectually trying to kill Israelis, out comes Hamas claiming they are too moderate. Now Hamas is trying to rule a territory, and realizing the same thing, and out come the groups saying Hamas is too moderate.

Yup, pretty much.

But whats different now is that you have all these jihadist groups just floating around looking for "islamic struggles" to take up. Hamas was founded in the late 80's as an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, with a goal not only of resisting the occupation, but providing social welfare and education for palestinians etc. These other groups are there just to pick a fight. It would be better for everyone if they werent around.

Edited November 19, 2012 by dre

[WIP]

In the end all that matters is that someone is throwing rocks at your house, maybe you deserve it, maybe you don't, but you cannot allow someone to throw rocks at your house, and you have a stockpile of bigger rocks. Do you ignore the rocks (no), do respond by only throwing the same size of rocks back, or do you punish the people who threw the rocks by throwing more and bigger ones back at them (duh).

Sure you don't have to discuss the history of the place, however in the here and now a fight between two parties isn't usually won but the smaller weaker one, stop throwing those little rocks, even if the other guy deserves them, he's gonna hurt you.

Can you throw rocks at someone's house if they blockade your house, and stop and search you and everyone else going in and out of your house....and draw up a restrictive list of articles you can bring in to your house - including preventing you from bringing in enough food to feed your children adequately? Or as one Israeli cabinet minister described it:"putting Gazans on a diet! So, how do you like that analogy?

[Bonam]

Yup, pretty much.

But whats different now is that you have all these jihadist groups just floating around looking for "islamic struggles" to take up. Hamas was founded in the late 80's as an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, with a goal not only of resisting the occupation, but providing social welfare and education for palestinians etc. These other groups are there just to pick a fight.

So basically they're even worse than Hamas. Just what the Palestinians needed! More reasons for Israel to send bombs their way.

[dre]

So basically they're even worse than Hamas. Just what the Palestinians needed! More reasons for Israel to send bombs their way.

Yup. Even worse than Hamas, and the last thing anyone needs.