Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

[bush_cheney2004]

rocket attacks are a symptom of israel's actions. you know it and i know it. so why lie?

So it would be OK if First Nations began rocket attacks in Canada ? You know, because such attacks would just be a "symptom" of land "occupation" and/or unsettled land claims.

[bud]

the notion that israel is annexing land and building settlements due to security reasons is the dumbest thing the hasbara bots tries to sell. just call it what it is; land theft.

[Guest American Woman]

hasbara bots

Bud said "hasbara bots."

[Guest Peeves]

Bud said "hasbara bots."

Now now, he's sticking on point,and trying so hard, give him.......Can't think of anything....

Tell you what though, if somebody attacked my country and my country fought and won territory from the losers, I'd want some promise they would never do it again before I gave them back a m.m. or speck of sand. I might concede there was an issue remaining about entitlement,but there would also be an issue of DEED!

[Rue]

That's because if Israel annexed the West Bank, it would very quickly no longer be a Jewish majority state. Israeli Jews would have to choose between implementing unequal policies, fleeing the country, or death. Given those choices, there is no choice. Fortunately, your poll is based on a hypothetical, and an unlikely one at that. Annexation of the West Bank by Israel is not going to happen, Israel's leaders are well aware of the demographic issues involved.

Hypotheticals that incite hatred for Israeli Jews is what Bud is all about. Pretending Israei Jews live in a vacuum not surrounded by terrorists bent on rubbing them out is also another one of his selective specialties.

In Bud's world everyone leaves free in the Middle East Muslim world of dhimmitude and where Sharia law entrenches apartheid and discrimination against non Muslims, women, gays or anyone that is Muslim and dares question the mainstream mullahs.

[dre]

the notion that israel is annexing land and building settlements due to security reasons is the dumbest thing the hasbara bots tries to sell. just call it what it is; land theft.

Not even land theft really... Its water theft. Most of the Israeli settlements in the west bank are built around key areas and infrastructure used to steal water.

Have a quick look at a map of water resources and west bank settlements.

[DogOnPorch]

Not even land theft really... Its water theft. Most of the Israeli settlements in the west bank are built around key areas and infrastructure used to steal water.

Have a quick look at a map of water resources and west bank settlements.

Oddly, had the Arabs not spoiled for war so hard in 1967, none of this would have been an issue and the Syrians would still have the National Water Carrier over a barrel. Sometimes war brings good fortune, and now Israel is fortunate enough to control Galilee. The Syrians tried to reverse this by force in 1973 and failed miserably in a wee affair known as the October War or the Yom Kippur War. Perhaps they'll do better next war.

There is no longer a way out of our present situation except by forging a road toward our objective, violently and by force, over a sea of blood and under a horizon blazing with fire. People do not want words - they want the sound of battle - the battle of destiny.

---Nasser, June 1967

[Guest Peeves]

Not even land theft really... Its water theft. Most of the Israeli settlements in the west bank are built around key areas and infrastructure used to steal water.

Have a quick look at a map of water resources and west bank settlements.

What's your point? The Israeli's are providing opportunities the Arabs would never have had if the land was still in the hands of other Arabs.

The West Bank settlements are negotiable just is as peace guarantees. You expect Israel to simply capitulate to Arab demands and just go away?That occupied land is disputed spoils of war.

[dre]

What's your point? The Israeli's are providing opportunities the Arabs would never have had if the land was still in the hands of other Arabs.

The West Bank settlements are negotiable just is as peace guarantees. You expect Israel to simply capitulate to Arab demands and just go away?That occupied land is disputed spoils of war.

My point was...

Not even land theft really... Its water theft. Most of the Israeli settlements in the west bank are built around key areas and infrastructure used to steal water.

Have a quick look at a map of water resources and west bank settlements.

[bud]

What's your point? The Israeli's are providing opportunities the Arabs would never have had if the land was still in the hands of other Arabs.

there is peeves version of the world and then there is reality:

in 2010 alone Israeli domination caused the Palestinian economy a loss of about $6.8 billion.

1. Israel is preventing Gaza from exporting agricultural and industrial products.

2. Israel is exploiting to the fullest the natural resources of the West Bank: water, quarries, mining in the Dead Sea, agricultural land, industrial zones, tourism and hiking sites. Every plus for the Israelis on the West Bank is a minus for the Palestinians.

3. Israel controls the electromagnetic spectrum and thereby limits the efficiency and profitability of the Palestinian cellular companies and the Palestinian high-tech industry.

4. Israel forbids Gaza fishermen to sail further than three nautical miles, severely limiting their prospects.

5. Israel conducts unfair competition with Palestinian products: subsidized water for Israeli farmers, including those in the settlements, compared to a minimal allocation of drinking water to the Palestinians. When drinking water in Hebron and Bethlehem is supplied to homes once a month, it’s no wonder that the vegetable fields are parched. ‏(“Do you know how much a kilo of tomatoes costs? Eight shekels,” demonstrators in Hebron told me, as though they were talking about meat. “Do you know that we’ve stopped growing cauliflower?” said a farmer in Halhoul, angrily noting the Israeli cauliflower in the stall.‏)

6. Due to the Israeli refusal to link up Palestinian communities in Area C ‏(the 61 percent of the West Bank which the Oslo Accords placed under full Israeli control‏), tens of thousands of people have to purchase water from tankers all year long. In the summer hundreds of thousands whose faucets have dried up have to buy water from tankers. The transportation increases the price of water to an average of eight times and more what their “neighbors,” the settlers, pay. With that money, how many enrichment classes in English and math could those families finance for their children? How many young men and women could they send to study at the university?

7. Israel forces the Palestinians to travel on twisting byways, from one enclave to another or from the city to the villages and towns in the district. Let’s assume that on average the distance to every destination is lengthened by 10 kilometers. That should be multiplied by six days a week, at least twice a day, 30,000 vehicles ‏(and that’s without including about 100,000 private cars‏). The unnecessary additional cost is divided among the drivers on public transportation and the passengers, and between the truck drivers and the merchants and customers. How many clinics could this addition pay for? How many millions of euros does it cost the European taxpayer?

link

[dre]

Oddly, had the Arabs not spoiled for war so hard in 1967, none of this would have been an issue and the Syrians would still have the National Water Carrier over a barrel. Sometimes war brings good fortune, and now Israel is fortunate enough to control Galilee. The Syrians tried to reverse this by force in 1973 and failed miserably in a wee affair known as the October War or the Yom Kippur War. Perhaps they'll do better next war.

There is no longer a way out of our present situation except by forging a road toward our objective, violently and by force, over a sea of blood and under a horizon blazing with fire. People do not want words - they want the sound of battle - the battle of destiny.

---Nasser, June 1967

Thats a distortion of history. THe war had already been going on for quite some time at that point. The first big punch was thrown more than a year before when Israel bombed Syria in 1965 and then again in 1966.

[bud]

Not even land theft really... Its water theft. Most of the Israeli settlements in the west bank are built around key areas and infrastructure used to steal water.

Have a quick look at a map of water resources and west bank settlements.

for sure. the control (theft) of water by israel on palestinian land is a huge issue.

[GostHacked]

What's your point? The Israeli's are providing opportunities the Arabs would never have had if the land was still in the hands of other Arabs.

The West Bank settlements are negotiable just is as peace guarantees. You expect Israel to simply capitulate to Arab demands and just go away?That occupied land is disputed spoils of war.

So why not just go all the way and annex both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel for all intents and purposes controls both areas regardless what anyone thinks here.

[DogOnPorch]

Thats a distortion of history. THe war had already been going on for quite some time at that point. The first big punch was thrown more than a year before when Israel bombed Syria in 1965 and then again in 1966.

Hardly a distortion...and in June 1967, Jordan held the so-called West-Bank...Syria still had the Golan. You are just trying to turn this conflict into something about water. Always have. While water IS a factor, that isn't why Nasser & crew mobilized the Arab world and massed their armies on Israel's borders...blockading what ports they could get away with blockading while foaming at the mouth for war. Perhaps you'd like to EXPLAIN why Nasser did it? Keeping in mind I have my own answer....

[dre]

So why not just go all the way and annex both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel for all intents and purposes controls both areas regardless what anyone thinks here.

Peeves is simply wrong about his claim that "occupied lands is disputed spoils of war". Israel has asserted no claim of ownership to most of Gaza and the west bank. They dont want to assimilate its population. The best outcome for Israel is the status quo... A permanent military occupation, that allows them to plunder the west bank without assimilating its people.

[DogOnPorch]

So why not just go all the way and annex both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel for all intents and purposes controls both areas regardless what anyone thinks here.

A group known as Hamas controls the Gaza Strip. They are widely viewed as a fascist, anti-Semitic, terrorist organization except by like minded types such as Greta Berlin. Israel moved ALL their settlers out of the Gaza Strip in 2005...if you recall.

Edited October 29, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

The site Bud has cut and paste from is a front. It is not a legitimate site.

This is what it engages in:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/10/22/Palestinian-Childrens-Art-for-Gaza-a-Fake

An organization called “Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East” is sponsoring an exhibit of drawings by children from Gaza. The drawings show American bombs used by Israel in its offensive against Gaza. The exhibit advertises the 26 drawings as created by Gaza children, ages 5 to 14, and reflects the children’s perceptions of the Israeli offensive against Gaza.

One little problem: the drawings are a fake. Honest Reporting Canada reported that the artwork in the exhibit was not drawn by children but by sophisticated artists mimicking a child’s style. And not only that, the “Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East” is a fake name for an organization that calls for the destruction of Israel.

Experts have unanimously agreed that the artwork in the exhibit had to have been executed by trained artists; the symbolism, detail, coloring and motifs are too sophisticated for children; the brushstrokes are dynamic, well conceived and controlled, and the people are drawn in clear single-line outline. All of these elements comprise art that could not have been done by untrained children.

Unsurprisingly, none of the drawings are signed, and none of the “artists” in the exhibit are even named.

More Palestinian propaganda. And the beat goes on …

[DogOnPorch]

The site Bud has cut and paste from is a front. It is not a legitimate site.

This is what it engages in:

http://www.breitbart...for-Gaza-a-Fake

An organization called “Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East” is sponsoring an exhibit of drawings by children from Gaza. The drawings show American bombs used by Israel in its offensive against Gaza. The exhibit advertises the 26 drawings as created by Gaza children, ages 5 to 14, and reflects the children’s perceptions of the Israeli offensive against Gaza.

One little problem: the drawings are a fake. Honest Reporting Canada reported that the artwork in the exhibit was not drawn by children but by sophisticated artists mimicking a child’s style. And not only that, the “Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East” is a fake name for an organization that calls for the destruction of Israel.

Experts have unanimously agreed that the artwork in the exhibit had to have been executed by trained artists; the symbolism, detail, coloring and motifs are too sophisticated for children; the brushstrokes are dynamic, well conceived and controlled, and the people are drawn in clear single-line outline. All of these elements comprise art that could not have been done by untrained children.

Unsurprisingly, none of the drawings are signed, and none of the “artists” in the exhibit are even named.

More Palestinian propaganda. And the beat goes on …

bud carries their web addy in his siggy. Yes...a pack of Greta Berlins if there ever was one.

[dre]

Hardly a distortion...and in June 1967, Jordan held the so-called West-Bank...Syria still had the Golan. You are just trying to turn this conflict into something about water. Always have. While water IS a factor, that isn't why Nasser & crew mobilized the Arab world and massed their armies on Israel's borders...blockading what ports they could get away with blockading while foaming at the mouth for war. Perhaps you'd like to EXPLAIN why Nasser did it? Keeping in mind I have my own answer....

Youre flat out wrong. Competing water diversion projects, Israels multiple bombings of Syria, and constant clashes on the border over in 1965 and 1966 is exactly what lead to the Summits at alexandria and arab defense pacts.

Fighting over competing water diversion projects is exactly what lead to the 6 day war.

The defense pact between Syria, and Egypt took place directly following Israels bombing of the water diversion works in Syria on July 7th, and a major skirmish on the border on August 15th. You can pretend these things didnt happen but they did.

Even if you go back to the Arab summit in Cairo in 1964 it was a direct response to the National Water Carrier project...

First Arab summit at Cairo (the Egyptians count this as the third Arab Summit) (ie. heads of State, instigated by Nasser), prompted by Israel’s national water carrier project and Palestinian agitation against it. Arabs declare their intentions of stopping the Israeli diversion scheme, which is in accordance with the Johnson plan, and decided on establishment of the PLO. A Unified Arab Command under Egyptian supervision was created. This summit and the one that followed in September caused considerable alarm in Israel, and is cited by Avi Shlaim (The Iron Wall) as the actual beginning of the 6 day war

.

You are trying to ignore the entire chronology of events that lead to the war in 1967, and pretend that the Arabs just up and mobilized unprovoked in a vacuum. Its simply not true. The war had already been ongoing for a couple of years at that point with nearly 300 different clashes along the border over water diversion projects.

Edited October 29, 2012 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

The war had been going non-stop since 1948. It wasn't water rights that started it and it wasn't water rights that started the 1967 battles. What happened is that Syria and Egypt had received brand new armies free* from the Soviets and they were eager to try them out. Feeling that they couldn't possibly lose, the Arabs hoped that by massing on the border, Israel would be forced to call up all of its reserves and keep them in the field indefinitely. Being a citizen army, this meant that the Israeli economy would be hurt for every day the reserves were in place. However, Nasser's own fiery speeches were getting the Arab world hungry for blood and they expected nothing less than what Nasser called for (see his above quote). Blood, death and the destruction of Israel. Israel, not going to wait for the Arab's new military advantage to come into play, struck first in a brilliant air campaign that snuffed out all the Arab air power in one swoop, leaving the Arab ground forces at the mercy of the Israelis. Few military campaigns were ever run so well.

* Free...but the Soviets needed warm water port facilities for their Navy.

[dre]

The war had been going non-stop since 1948. It wasn't water rights that started it and it wasn't water rights that started the 1967 battles. What happened is that Syria and Egypt had received brand new armies free* from the Soviets and they were eager to try them out. Feeling that they couldn't possibly lose, the Arabs hoped that by massing on the border, Israel would be forced to call up all of its reserves and keep them in the field indefinitely. Being a citizen army, this meant that the Israeli economy would be hurt for every day the reserves were in place. However, Nasser's own fiery speeches were getting the Arab world hungry for blood and they expected nothing less than what Nasser called for (see his above quote). Blood, death and the destruction of Israel. Israel, not going to wait for the Arab's new military advantage to come into play, struck first in a brilliant air campaign that snuffed out all the Arab air power in one swoop, leaving the Arab ground forces at the mercy of the Israelis. Few military campaigns were ever run so well.

* Free...but the Soviets needed warm water port facilities for their Navy.

Sorry this is fantasy, and does nothing to counter the facts in my previous post. Arab defense pacts were a direct result of the NWC and the fresh round of border clashes that it resulted in. Your suggestion that the war had been going on since 1948 is also not true. There were skirmishes and incidents to be sure, but nowhere near of the scale and frequency.

Its quite simply not true, to say that Arabs started the 67 war. The chronology of events simply does not support that assertion. A more accurate analysis would be that BOTH sides chose to pursue their own interests in a way that resulted in the escalation in hostilities that lead to the war.

Like I said... you completely ignore the chronology of events, and base your position on both a completely arbitrary and false belief in when the war actually started, and a cherry picking of events. You could just as easily say that the war started when Israel because construction of the NWC, which precipitated the first Arab summit, and started a fresh new chain of violence.

Edited October 29, 2012 by dre

[GostHacked]

A group known as Hamas controls the Gaza Strip. They are widely viewed as a fascist, anti-Semitic, terrorist organization except by like minded types such as Greta Berlin. Israel moved ALL their settlers out of the Gaza Strip in 2005...if you recall.

Since Israel can deny ships entry to Gaza, that tells me Hamas has no control over it whatsoever. Ultimately (no matter if one wants to recognize it or not) Israel controls Gaza and the West Bank.

[Rue]

“2. Israel is exploiting to the fullest the natural resources of the West Bank: water, quarries, mining in the Dead Sea, agricultural land, industrial zones, tourism and hiking sites. Every plus for the Israelis on the West Bank is a minus for the Palestinians.”

The above cut and paste from the pseuto-name ‘Bud” engages in another classic Syrian Ministry of Information motus opperandi having first been introduced in 1952 and continues to be used by Iranian, Syrian, Hezbollah and Hamas disinformation agencies and that is the portrayal as Palestinians and Israelis as unable to co-exist economically. In fact what “Bud” is fully aware of is that Israelpeacefully coexisted with the Gaza and funded building its roads, government buildings, schools, mosques, housing and even greenhouses. It often funded this through charities affiliated indirectly with Hamas but in the days when Hamas was against terrorism and Fatah was openly in support of terrorism. The wing of Hamas against terrorism was then disposed by a cell from Syria controlled by Iran and Syrian intelligence and instituted terrorism. The first thing it did was to blow up these schools, roads, mosques, and then being rubber necklacing (placing burning rubber tires) on the necks of alleged Israeli collarborators.

It made it clear to all Gaza civilians they were not to ever attempt to live in peace with Israelis or they would suffer the same fate. Then we had the same sob’s now holding Gaza citizens hostage portraying Israel as having funded Hamas yet another attempt to revise history to cover what they had done and perpetuate the above hatred through the concept Israelis and Palestinians are never able to work together. This is how the game of terror works and as part of that game its important to have people with anonymous pseuto-names like “Bud” paste the above.

Now do you really think Israelis and Palestinians have not worked together and have for each other’s benefits. Is script “Bud” pushes reality?

I can easily respond with other web sites such as this one to say the above is just not true:

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=689705&ct=7181409

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=4183369&ct=7227345

http://www.vanleer.org.il/eng/content.asp?id=300

http://www.insightonconflict.org/conflicts/israel-palestinian-territories/peacebuilding-organisations/ecf/

Here is direct proof of how the efforts of “Bud” to portray a situation of Israelis hating Palestinians is false: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-09/27/c_123772113.htm

Yes there are problems. Of course there are. But it is not black and white as Bud would incite you to believe and if he insists on placing allegations like this on this forum, I will counter each comment with proof to the opposite.

Cont. next post

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry this is fantasy, and does nothing to counter the facts in my previous post. Arab defense pacts were a direct result of the NWC and the fresh round of border clashes that it resulted in. Your suggestion that the war had been going on since 1948 is also not true. There were skirmishes and incidents to be sure, but nowhere near of the scale and frequency.

Its quite simply not true, to say that Arabs started the 67 war. The chronology of events simply does not support that assertion. A more accurate analysis would be that BOTH sides chose to pursue their own interests in a way that resulted in the escalation in hostilities that lead to the war.

Like I said... you completely ignore the chronology of events, and base your position on both a completely arbitrary and false belief in when the war actually started, and a cherry picking of events. You could just as easily say that the war started when Israel because construction of the NWC, which precipitated the first Arab summit, and started a fresh new chain of violence.

Uh...the Arabs started it. The Israelis finished it. I know you'd have preferred the Israelis not protected themselves and simply rolled over in the face of the new Warsaw Pact proxy states bearing down on them. But they didn't. Too bad for the Arabs...but, I don't feel sorry for them. They knew what they were getting into by mobilizing mech forces on the border and blockading Israeli ports. In 1914, such moves started a World War.

[DogOnPorch]

Since Israel can deny ships entry to Gaza, that tells me Hamas has no control over it whatsoever. Ultimately (no matter if one wants to recognize it or not) Israel controls Gaza and the West Bank.

Hamas controls Gaza. Get over it.