Smallc Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 What's the criteria for entry into Canada? Be from a third world country and breathing? That's what it seems like. Well, it seemed wrong, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Well, it seemed wrong, then. My point is that it's laughably easy to come to Canada and live for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I do indeed believe in a refugee system. But I'm more of a traditionalist in how I interpet a refugee. Someone who is being harshly and violently persecuted by their government would qualify. I don't think the Roma qualify. There's a lot of evidence of the widespread and often systemic discrimination, oppression and outright violence Roma face in Europe. I think we have a chicken and egg situation between the criminal and indolent elements of the Roma community and the aforementioned oppression they face. Hard to make an honest living when no one will hire you because of what you are. Hard to want to hire someone if they can't show they can make an honest living. I live in Parkdale in Toronto, basically the main destination for Roma newcomers. I've seen a lot of their issues first hand and have certainly felt the same disgust at seeing young children rooting through garbage in the middle of the day when they should be in school, or being woken up late by gangs of drunken men in tracksuits. I'm not that sympathetic to their lot here. But I'm not so cold as to want to send all of them back. I agree with teh OP link: Here, if nowhere else, Roma must continue to have an honest chance at living honest lives. That doesn't mean accepting everyone, but it does mean not rejecting everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I disagree Argus. Why must we tip toe around certain racial groups? Why not just call it like we see it? We need some straight talk instead of people being scared to say what they mean. Because discussing an issue with immigration should not lead to loose talk which might inspire more unofficial actions taken against the community under discussion. I'm a traditional conservative, so any community that works hard is fine with me. Those that don't, and which have, as a group, a troubling history of economic failure and criminality is simply a group I feel we can do without, as far as immigration is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Maybe we need to track refugees with gps anklets until they earn their citizenship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hating the Jews, hating the Roma The Jewish community understands where such hate can lead. The special bond Jews and Roma share was nowhere more evident than during the Holocaust, which Jews call the Shoah. Also targeted for extermination, the Roma had their own word for their attempted genocide: the Porajmos or “Devouring.” There is even a Roma proverb that speaks of Jews and Roma trudging to the gas chambers together, ande jekh than hamisajlo amaro vushar ande’l bova: “Our ashes are mingled in the ovens.”If the Sun News Network had aired an attack on Jews, the whole country would be outraged. Yet we have seen little support for the Roma from other faith and ethno-cultural groups, politicians and community leaders in the wake of Levant’s on-air rant. Even the media has remained mysteriously silent. The Roma are a small community in Canada, numbering roughly 80,000. Some families have been living here since the early 20th century. These families, which still speak the native Romani language and share a culture dating back to the eastern and central Europe of the 16th century, are now into fifth and sixth generations. Many more Roma came to Canada during the Hungarian Revolution in 1956; and numerous others have arrived in the last two decades to escape vicious and violent attacks from neo-Nazi groups in Hungary and the Czech Republic. There will always be those who claim the Roma engage in lawlessness and crime. And in Europe, statistics do demonstrate a significant increase in theft by those living in Roma encampments. These numbers have been used by French authorities to justify large scale deportations of Roma. Yet to ascribe such negative characteristics to an entire people is grossly unfair. Jewish history is replete with Jews described as thieves, beggars and cheats. Many Jews trying to come to North America from Europe in the early 20th century were denied entry as a result. Poverty and discrimination may beget lawlessness. But targeting an entire identifiable group for the actions of some is not the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 My point is that it's laughably easy to come to Canada and live for free. Yes, so we should address that. We should apply more stringent standards to immigrants and refugees insofar as their willingess to apply themselves to jobs, and skills training. Those that don't want to, and which wind up on benefits or behind bars, we should deport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Maybe we need to track refugees with gps anklets until they earn their citizenship. I think we should do the same with citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I think we should do the same with citizens. Maybe we should micro chip everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hating the Jews, hating the Roma The Roma are a small community in Canada, numbering roughly 80,000. Some families have been living here since the early 20th century. These families, which still speak the native Romani language and share a culture dating back to the eastern and central Europe of the 16th century, are now into fifth and sixth generations. Gee, I don't understand. I thought that once we hit that second generation immigrants all adopt Canadian ways and cast aside their old world cultures. Yet here you are saying that even after five or six generations they've refused to integrate, still speak their old language, and retain their old culture? How can that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) The problem is that no matter how much anyone is against anything the government will continue to let in unlimited amounts of immigrants. It's hopeless. The the new immigrants start slaughtering Canadians the government will blame the Canadians. It's a PC nightmare. Edited October 12, 2012 by Mr.Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Hating the Jews, hating the Roma The difference between the Jews and the Roma, BD, was that the suspicion of the Jews was largely baseless, based on the fear that they were different. The evidence abounds that Jews tend to be hard-working, productive, and as law-abiding as anyone else. There is no such evidence for the Roma, quite the contrary, in fact. Edited October 12, 2012 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Wait a second ? Weren't we just talking about not letting Muslims in and letting more 'Europeans' in ? Can we finally admit we're just talking about white English speaking people then ? (Yes, I am being provocative.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Wait a second ? Weren't we just talking about not letting Muslims in and letting more 'Europeans' in ? Can we finally admit we're just talking about white English speaking people then ? (Yes, I am being provocative.) Michael, I don't care what race the people are but they should speak English and be crime free. The Roma are anything but a crime free society. They cause nothing but problems everywhere they go. We don't need that in Canada but ofc we always let everyone in. Is the Roma a cultural trait Canada should embrace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Gee, I don't understand. I thought that once we hit that second generation immigrants all adopt Canadian ways and cast aside their old world cultures. Yet here you are saying that even after five or six generations they've refused to integrate, still speak their old language, and retain their old culture? How can that be? I wasn't aware that to integrate, one had to completely erase all aspects of the old culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 There's a lot of evidence of the widespread and often systemic discrimination, oppression and outright violence Roma face in Europe. I think we have a chicken and egg situation between the criminal and indolent elements of the Roma community and the aforementioned oppression they face. Hard to make an honest living when no one will hire you because of what you are. Hard to want to hire someone if they can't show they can make an honest living. I live in Parkdale in Toronto, basically the main destination for Roma newcomers. I've seen a lot of their issues first hand and have certainly felt the same disgust at seeing young children rooting through garbage in the middle of the day when they should be in school, or being woken up late by gangs of drunken men in tracksuits. I'm not that sympathetic to their lot here. But I'm not so cold as to want to send all of them back. I agree with teh OP link: That doesn't mean accepting everyone, but it does mean not rejecting everyone. I quoted the whole response because it merits reading again. I will admit right up front,Roma's bug me, any and all interaction with them has been unpleasant. But you live among them, Parkdale I am quite familiar with, and as such I will take your words posted as evidence that I need to open my eyes to the whole reality of them not my unpleasant interactions only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I quoted the whole response because it merits reading again. I will admit right up front,Roma's bug me, any and all interaction with them has been unpleasant. But you live among them, Parkdale I am quite familiar with, and as such I will take your words posted as evidence that I need to open my eyes to the whole reality of them not my unpleasant interactions only. Thanks. It's easy to see the problems. It's not so easy to see the one's who aren't causing problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I wasn't aware that to integrate, one had to completely erase all aspects of the old culture. According to the quote they still retain their old language and culture after five or six generations. That's not ingegrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I quoted the whole response because it merits reading again. I will admit right up front,Roma's bug me, any and all interaction with them has been unpleasant. But you live among them, Parkdale I am quite familiar with, and as such I will take your words posted as evidence that I need to open my eyes to the whole reality of them not my unpleasant interactions only. Nowhere in that quote did he speak of any "pleasant" interactions with them, nor has anyone suggested anything hopeful in the way of them abandoning their ways and learning to be productive citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 According to the quote they still retain their old language and culture after five or six generations. That's not ingegrating. It doesn't say exclusively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 According to the quote they still retain their old language and culture after five or six generations. That's not ingegrating. Thats hard to agree with. Italians retain the language, almost universally they speak English and understand Italian. The culture of family every Sunday, large obscene weddings (payback baby!) and the rest live on. I would still consider all of them integrated. Hell, my mother kept the old traditions alive for quite some tme......shoe leather roast beef for dinner on Sundays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 It would be nice if every new immigrant was going to be a productive addition to Canada but that isn't reality. As the worlds best nation I think Canada needs to be more picky about who they let in. If we have so many people wanting to come to Canada we should only choose the best applicants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 My point is that it's laughably easy to come to Canada and live for free. And I want you to prove that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Nowhere in that quote did he speak of any "pleasant" interactions with them, nor has anyone suggested anything hopeful in the way of them abandoning their ways and learning to be productive citizens. Again, easy to say when the ones who are productive are off being productive. This is the danger and why anecdotal evidence is a piss-poor basis for policy (cue kraychik cut and paste rant about experts and studies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 And I want you to prove that. Simple for anyone to get in and once they are in they get free health care, welfare, odsp, business loans and a multitude of other services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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