The Roma are coming, the Gypsies are coming!

[Argus]

You're going to quibble between 1 million and 940k? 1 million is a perfectly valid shorthand approximation for 940k, especially when the number is sure to have risen since the time the 940k data was obtained.

I believe the Muslim population of Canada has doubled every ten years since about 1970 or so.

[Guest Peeves]

I think he is providing..provoking with a positive presumptive parochial position. You of course may partake pari passu in the pontificating as pilpul, or peruse another post

[Mr.Canada]

Are you just trolling here or are you really this freaky?

it's what they did in Nazi Germany and in USSR and it worked great. Why not in Canada too?

[Bonam]

The Muslim population has doubled since 2001 when they had 500k Muslims in Canada. So another 10 years and the Muslims will go up by 2.5 times and we will have around 3.5 million by 2020 then 9 million by 2030, 23 million by 2040. These numbers aren't far away.

That was my point, that 1 million isn't far away from 940k, and that guyser calling your 1 million number "made up" was silly in that context.

[Bonam]

it's what they did in Nazi Germany and in USSR and it worked great.

[Mr.Canada]

That was my point, that 1 million isn't far away from 940k, and that guyser calling your 1 million number "made up" was silly in that context.

Oh yes sorry didn't see it.

lo. Well it worked in the way that everyone had a picture in the homes, schools and government buildings of the states. I'd like to see nationalism here in Canada but it's dead. no one cares about Canada just what they can take from her.

[Bonam]

lo. Well it worked in the way that everyone had a picture in the homes, schools and government buildings of the states. I'd like to see nationalism here in Canada but it's dead.

Having some pride in Canada has nothing to do with revering a picture of a current prime minister. If someone wants to show their patriotism for Canada, they can hang up a Canadian Flag. That is the symbol of our nation, not an individual politician. Canada is not a cult of personality.

[Mr.Canada]

Having some pride in Canada has nothing to do with revering a picture of a current prime minister. If someone wants to show their patriotism for Canada, they can hang up a Canadian Flag. That is the symbol of our nation, not an individual politician. Canada is not a cult of personality.

But think of how much grander Canada would be with that sort of reverence for our leader. Everyone would try that much harder work that extra bit more all to make PM Harper happy. It would be awesome.

It would be sort of a cool alternative history to have a strong right wing fascist government in Canada with Christianity as official religion. With military parades like they had in USSR downtown Toronto. Displays of tanks, troops and nuclear missiles with military men in formation. That would be awesome.

[Bonam]

But think of how much grander Canada would be with that sort of reverence for our leader. Everyone would try that much harder work that extra bit more all to make PM Harper happy. It would be awesome.

No. People should strive in the pursuit of their own happiness, not to satisfy the desires of a tyrant.

It would be sort of a cool alternative history to have a strong right wing fascist government in Canada with Christianity as official religion.

It may be "cool" in the sense that someone could write an interesting novel about it, but it sure wouldn't be a nation I would want to live in.

With military parades like they had in USSR downtown Toronto. Displays of tanks, troops and nuclear missiles with military men in formation. That would be awesome.

Yes. So awesome. It worked out so well for the USSR, didn't it?

[Mr.Canada]

Yes. So awesome. It worked out so well for the USSR, didn't it?

I just like grand displays of nationalism like that. it's inspiring to see what a powerful nation we could be. I'd like to see our military built up to a million strong then add Turks and Caicos to our country as a southern province then make it a major military base there.

We could then team up with the US and knock off Cuba and Venezuela and install puppet government as us as colonial powers. Basically take out any weak nations and add them to Canada's colonial file

We'd be a real super power and that would give us respect in the world.

[bleeding heart]

You don't suppose it's possible there is some intermediary group that is neither of the "I couldn't care less who comes in" or the "sitting in a corner terrified and peeing themselves" do you?

No, of course not...

You don't suppose it's possible there is some intermediary group that is neither of the "I couldn't care less who comes in" or the "sitting in a corner terrified and peeing themselves" do you?

No, of course not...

You've got the formulation wrong.

There are the "I couldn't care less" folks, and the more interested folks (by definition everyone discussing this matter, including those who disagree with Argus)...and both of them are the vitual opposites of the cute little 'fraidy cats.

[Mr.Canada]

No matter what we do the government will let in ,ore and more people. It will never end. Politicians like to say"we're a nation of immigrants" what they really want to say is "we're a nation of minorities" I believe that is the real goal that they keep hidden from us.

[Argus]

it's what they did in Nazi Germany and in USSR and it worked great. Why not in Canada too?

Aside from the fact it didn't work great?

[Argus]

It would be sort of a cool alternative history to have a strong right wing fascist government in Canada with Christianity as official religion. With military parades like they had in USSR downtown Toronto. Displays of tanks, troops and nuclear missiles with military men in formation. That would be awesome.

Could we have bread lines too? That would be super!

[Argus]

You've got the formulation wrong.

There are the "I couldn't care less" folks, and the more interested folks (by definition everyone discussing this matter, including those who disagree with Argus)...and both of them are the vitual opposites of the cute little 'fraidy cats.

Concerned does not equal "terrified" or even afraid. Muslims in Canada have a different set of values than I do, and many of the things they believe in are antithecal to my values. Or to quote from a great Canadian:

Their numbers were so small they were lumped in with "other faiths". Yet their numbers doubled between 1981 and 1991. And between 1991 and 2001 their numbers doubled again and they took over from Jews as the third most populace religious group. Most statisticians agree their numbers have doubled again since 2001. A group which doubles its population every 7-10 years is a group which is growing in power and influence, certainly in a democracy, where their votes count as much as anyone's. Which means that you can't simply dismiss their violent chauvinism, bigotry and religious fanaticism as quaint and not something which will affect you. Perhaps it doesn't affect you now, but how about in another twenty or thirty years. I plan to still be living here then. How about you?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Argus

[login]

No. People should strive in the pursuit of their own happiness, not to satisfy the desires of a tyrant.

It may be "cool" in the sense that someone could write an interesting novel about it, but it sure wouldn't be a nation I would want to live in.

Yes. So awesome. It worked out so well for the USSR, didn't it?

Russia has a strong and proud military army and airforce heritage. For a country 1/10th the population of NATO they did remarkably well at playing the antihero.

Of course for Canada to afford those displays it would need to buy used Russian weapons stocks.

You can not in anyway attack Russian national pride, your argument is false, Russians are proud to be Russian even if they are liviving in another former soviet state.

Your argument there is simply wrong.

As a secondary note there were a lot of factors at play with the breakup of the USSR, but in many ways the USSR, CIS are still marginal forces, the simple mater was no where until the creation of the European Union did you see a country so large hold so many diverse ethnic groups together. Canada put its ethnic groups on reserves and treated them as second class citizens, in the USSR they were free and equal, as long as they spoke Russian.

These characterizations of NAZI Germany or the USSR as non function are simply false. For the conditions the countries faced they perservered tremendously well. NAZI Germany was a power house rising from ashes, USSR was a major work player for nearly a century, Canada's growth and still even today lays in the shadow of the remaints of those states.

How long has the EU existed before near monetary union breakdown? How much longer does the US have under its own financial failure and foreign ownership by China and Japan?

Attacking the "flag" of those states when your own states have done much the same but better at covering it up is of little merit to the topic, that being the ludicrist notion of applying racial stereotypes to immigration allowances.

Each is merited of its circumstances but I don't see the conservative party raising to questions with a hitler salute, so I don't see why they should enact the same racial stereotypes as the NAZI's.

Edited October 19, 2012 by login

[Guest Peeves]

and we need an iconic little blue book!

[Argus]

Seems it isn't all just suspicion, hmm.

As revealed by the broadcaster this week, the Canadian Border Services Agency conducted a study last year — codenamed Project SARA — that tracked Hungarian Roma who had relocated to the greater Toronto area since 2008, when Ottawa lifted the requirement for Hungarian citizens to obtain a visa before travelling to Canada. They were focused on allegations of crime and welfare fraud, and, the report states, there was reason to be concerned.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/10/18/roma/

[Guest Peeves]

Of course your (Argus*)

selective editing is but part of the story. There is beyond any doubt,

A) "a criminal element within the group."

an apparent abuse of our refugee system by opportunists.

C) A requirement by Canada to investigate and act on unusual "anomalous phenomena".

the CBSA report concludes that while the Roma migration does not seem to constitute an effort by organized crime, there is a criminal element within the refugees.

“A criminal element amongst the [refugee] claimants is present,” the report notes. “They are known to engage in petty theft, break and enter, possession of property obtained by crime, fraud and forgery, and assault … many engage in similar activities in Canada.” The report also notes that many refugee claimants arrive, claim refugee status, collect social assistance benefits, and then leave before their status is determined. Sometimes, the report notes dryly, “various factors” within Ontario’s Ministry of Community and Social Services allows departed claimants to continue collecting their benefits even after leaving Canada.

— since the visa requirement was scrapped in 2008, the number of Roma arriving each year in Canada has increased steadily. Indeed, it went up by 88% between 2011 and 2010 alone, hitting 4,442 claims in 2011.

If CBSA didn’t investigate the impact of this clearly anomalous phenomena and its impacts on Canadian government ledgers, not to mention public safety, it would be neglecting its duties. The public should expect that the CBSA would, in fact, launch a similar review in any comparable situation, regardless of the ethnic or religious background of the claimants. The Roma’s sad history of oppression is not an escape-scrutiny card. Canada owes them a fair hearing, not special treatment.

There is, of course, a certain irony in the Canadian Roma community calling an investigation of the refugee seekers racial profiling. The Roma have racially profiled themselves, by claiming their membership in a disadvantaged group is enough to get them in the door.

But such ironies are beside the main point. Only fools would let in thousands of refugee claimants from a developed country without looking a little deeper into what was going on. The CBSA has nothing to apologize for.

National Post

i certainly expect my ministerial agencies to conduct themselves with due diligence in matters of domestic and public security and financial interest.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

Truncated post for respose.

Russia has a strong and proud military army and airforce heritage. no where until the creation of the European Union did you see a country so large hold so many diverse ethnic groups together. Canada put its ethnic groups on reserves and treated them as second class citizens, in the USSR they were free and equal, as long as they spoke Russian.

I would take issue with that unless you are prepared to accept the holding of diverse groups together was done by atrocity and brutality.

http://www.historyor...ic_problems.php

Seems to me I saw tanks invading one of those ethnic groups in Hungary.

Tito, Josip Broz (1892-1980), president of Yugoslavia, who established a Communist state independent of the USSR after World War II

"Stalin through brute force and the slaughtering of national elites welded together the different ethnic groups. The map shows that although a vast country over half the USSR was sparsely settled or uninhabited. During World War Two whole races were moved to uninhabited areas on suspicion of co-operating with the Nazis. This can be seen on the map by Germans (number 33) living in Central Asia. A total of 60 million people lived outside their republics. The roots of the Armenian - Azerbaijani conflict over the territory of Nagorno - Karabakh can also be seen clearly from the map. A pocket of Armenian people (31) is surrounded on all sided by Azerbaijani. The Soviet Union had a diverse range of ethnic peoples between its borders.

With a multicultural society, individual republic's demands for independence where always going to cause chaos in the USSR. Gorbachev could not let one territorial adjustment take place as there were 120 changes wanted by various ethnic groups. He often allowed the groups to fight it out sending in the army only when the demonstrators started demanding independence. It was to stop anti Soviet demonstrations that the military entered Baku leaving over 100 dead. Stained with the blood of its own citizens the military lost much moral authority. The violence only hardened the resolve of the republics to break away from Moscow. Independence demands often followed a pattern. Problems of language and culture were first followed by the truth about the past, then the environment, then the economy, then political autonomy, then the goal of sovereignty and finally independence. In this way the republics could build support for independence without having to face the full wrath of Moscow.

With a large number of people and entire races living outside their homelands ethnic conflict in the USSR only needed a spark to ignite. The spark was the economy's collapse.

[Guest Peeves]

Since anyone may at their own discretion (as I understand it), move from one E.U. country to another as they see fit, there is certainly no justification for any from the EU to be claiming refugee status in CANADA!

[guyser]

Since anyone may at their own discretion (as I understand it), move from one E.U. country to another as they see fit, there is certainly no justification for any from the EU to be claiming refugee status in CANADA!

Duly noted w thanks.

Judge and jury. Amazing!

[Wild Bill]

Since anyone may at their own discretion (as I understand it), move from one E.U. country to another as they see fit, there is certainly no justification for any from the EU to be claiming refugee status in CANADA!

Peeves, this was a big issue in the MSM a couple of years ago. I remember that one reporter had an off-the-record quote from some EU official saying that they actually encouraged Roma to emigrate to Canada, figuring it was an easy way to dodge the constraints of political correctness in handling the Roma problem in Europe, by making the Roma CANADA's problem!

[Michael Hardner]

Constraints of political correctness is a meaningless term here.

We're still trying to understand how the system would keep people out without making our own constitution into a joke.

Political correctness ? All we're asking for is answers here.

[jacee]

Germany inaugurates long-awaited Berlin memorial to the Nazis' Gypsy victims

BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, OCTOBER 24, 2012 BERLIN - Germany is inaugurating a long-awaited memorial to the hundreds of thousands of Gypsies, or Roma, who were killed under Nazi rule.

...

It's close to memorials to the Nazis' Jewish and gay victims that have been inaugurated in recent years. Romani Rose, head of Germany's Central Council of Sinti and Roma, says it makes clear that the killing of Gypsies during the Holocaust was "a genocide that had its own dimensions."

It's not clear exactly how many Gypsies were killed during the Holocaust. Estimates range from 220,000 to 500,000 or more.

Hating the Jew, Hating the Gypsy

“These are gypsies,a culture synonymous with swindlers. The phrase gypsy and cheater have been so interchangeable historically that the word has entered the English language as a verb: he gypped me. Well the gypsies have gypped us. Too many have come here as false refugees. And they come here to gyp us again and rob us blind as they have done in Europe for centuries … They’re gypsies. And one of the central characteristics of that culture is that their chief economy is theft and begging.”

The TV host who said these words was Ezra Levant,and the broadcaster was the Sun News Network.

Just as our own Jewish community would never stand for such a hateful attack,so the Roma are not remaining silent. Gina Csanyi-Robah,the executive director of Toronto’s Roma Community Centre,has laid complaints with the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC),the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council (CBSC) and the Alberta Law Society. She is also considering further legal action as is permitted under Canadian law.

The Jewish community understands where such hate can lead. The special bond Jews and Roma share was nowhere more evident than during the Holocaust,which Jews call the Shoah. Also targeted for extermination,the Roma had their own word for their attempted genocide: the Porajmos or “Devouring.”

...

Yet to ascribe such negative characteristics to an entire people is grossly unfair. Jewish history is replete with Jews described as thieves,beggars and cheats. Many Jews trying to come to North America from Europe in the early 20th century were denied entry as a result. Poverty and discrimination may beget lawlessness. But targeting an entire identifiable group for the actions of some is not the answer.

In the late 1990s,a group of Roma refugees arrived in Canada and were temporarily housed in a downtown motel. In short order,members of the neo-Nazi Heritage Front demonstrated in front of the hotel with hateful pickets and the straight-arm Nazi salute,terrorizing the new arrivals. Police acted,and anti-hate charges were laid. It took almost a decade,but the demonstrators eventually were convicted.

To the credit of the Sun News Network,a full apology and retraction was run late last week. As for Mr. Levant himself: no apology,no retraction —only silence.

The time has come for all of us to reject hate and bigotry —against any group.

Bernie Farber

Edited October 24, 2012 by jacee