wyly Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 The ability to understand higher level math is a measure of ones logical reasoning ability. no more valuable than many other skills...and totally useless if you don't require it...logical reasoning ability can be found elsewhere... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
TimG Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) no more valuable than many other skills...and totally useless if you don't require it...logical reasoning ability can be found elsewhere.Everything you learn at university it useless. University is a filtering mechanism that allows employers to select the employee based the skills they had to learn to get their degree. A candidate that can understand higher level math and is capable of writing a coherent essay is a better candidate than someone that cannot understand higher level math. Edited October 11, 2012 by TimG Quote
cybercoma Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Posted October 11, 2012 Everything you learn at university it useless. Spoken like someone that knows nothing about universities. Quote
Bonam Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 to bring in some extra cash my daughter edits research papers for MD's, MD's you think are bright people and can write well but she rewrites their papers cleaning them up, making them clear and concise...being able to write well is a learned skill... In my experience, about 1/3-1/2 of the people out there who one would think of as "smart people" like scientists, doctors, engineers, etc, can actually write well. The others either can't write well or hate writing and thus are unwilling to put in the time required to write well. For them, someone else has to do their writing. But, to understand what it is they need to write, someone needs to be able to talk to said doctor/scientist and understand the topic, to read their research notes and documentation and understand it, to read relevant background material and understand it, and then to put it all together in a coherent paper. And that someone is going to be another expert in the field, one of the 1/3-1/2 that can write well. Now, what your daughter does sounds more like editing. That is, someone has written a paper, and it must be checked for style, grammar, presentation, conciseness, etc. That's all well and good, but it's not "writing". Further, editing papers and reports on fields they do not understand and have little/no interest in is not exactly the dream job of most people who go through arts majors. Quote
wyly Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 Everything you learn at university it useless. University is a filtering mechanism that allows employers to select the employee based the skills they had to learn to get their degree. A candidate that can understand higher level math and is capable of writing a coherent essay is a better candidate than someone that cannot understand higher level math. crap, history is filled fantastic writers that never even had the equivalentof todays high school math... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
TimG Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 crap, history is filled fantastic writers that never even had the equivalentof todays high school math... And if a job required creative writing then they would be useful. But jobs usually require a mix of skills and if you are looking for a generalist someone who understands higher level math and can write well is a better choice. Quote
Argus Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 I doubt that even business, engineering and such even graduate the right number of new grads to fill those jobs. How many professional jobs are there for new hires today ? Ontario continues to churn out thousands of new teachers each year, notwithstanding the fact we have way too many teachers. Reality seldom enters into such things. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Either they have less valuable science degrees (economics, where they can do analysis for a bank for a moderate salary) or they don't know how to look for work. Brother in law is working on the installation, maintenance, and updating of robots in a warehouse. A lot of those working with him are from abroad (Ukraine, India, Germany) because there are so few qualified eletrical and mechanical engineers in Canada. You don't get this kind of a job taking a course in sociology. Met the Ukrainian over the holidays. He's on a work permit. Not great English, but supposedly a genius at solving problems. Edited October 11, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Posted October 11, 2012 Ontario continues to churn out thousands of new teachers each year, notwithstanding the fact we have way too many teachers. Reality seldom enters into such things. What do you suggest? Teacher's colleges cut back drastically on the number of applicants they accept? Not everyone that gets a teaching degree will teach here in Canada. Some will even go North where they're short on teachers. If graduates choose to stay in the major urban areas where there are no jobs, then that's their prerogative. Quote
Argus Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) What do you suggest? Teacher's colleges cut back drastically on the number of applicants they accept? Not everyone that gets a teaching degree will teach here in Canada. Some will even go North where they're short on teachers. If graduates choose to stay in the major urban areas where there are no jobs, then that's their prerogative. Yes, I would suggest they cut back drastically. If there are no jobs then there's no point in training a pile of new grads. Some might go north while others go abroad, but most just keep desperately trying to find work here. Oversupply doesn’t begin to describe the labour-market mismatch between newly minted teachers and teaching jobs in Ontario. http://www.universityaffairs.ca/way-too-many-teachers.aspx Edited October 11, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Rocky Road Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Honestly, the direction of the World (Canada et al) is frightening. There was an article on the globe and mail the other day saying the IMF is concerned that the EU and the US are in danger of "falling off a cliff" when debt becomes unmanageable. One has to wonder the sustainability of our living systems when all is about the Now and the Present, with little regard for the future. Edit: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443294904578046224156159896.html Wall Street Journal article on the global economy. Edited October 11, 2012 by Rocky Road Quote
cybercoma Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Yes, I would suggest they cut back drastically. If there are no jobs then there's no point in training a pile of new grads. Some might go north while others go abroad, but most just keep desperately trying to find work here. Oversupply doesn’t begin to describe the labour-market mismatch between newly minted teachers and teaching jobs in Ontario. http://www.universit...y-teachers.aspx And you think this is the correct approach for universities to take? Students need to take the correct courses from their freshman year in order to graduate with a teaching degree 6 years later. By the time policies are implemented and requirements are changed, there's a bit of a lag. In essence, you're saying that universities should predict job-market demands 10 years down the road and base their programs on that kind of crystal-balling. I disagree. Universities are not there to train people for jobs. More to the point, there are teaching jobs, as I noted above, if people are willing to relocate to areas that need teachers. The universities cannot predict what their students will do after they leave. They provide the appropriate curriculum. Some academic advisors will even warn students about the labour market for teachers when they express an interest in that program stream. It's ultimately up to the student to decide what kind of education they want. If they want to learn how to become a teacher and roll the dice, that's a choice that's ultimately up to them. Unless of course you think we should build a socialist "paradise" where the state determines what job you will have and what kind of training is available to you. We could even have a caste system where you last name will determine what sector you will be employed in. Edited October 11, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
CPCFTW Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 crap, history is filled fantastic writers that never even had the equivalentof todays high school math... What does that have to do with tim's argument that employers would prefer a great writer who is also great at math? Quote
eyeball Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Honestly, the direction of the World (Canada et al) is frightening. There was an article on the globe and mail the other day saying the IMF is concerned that the EU and the US are in danger of "falling off a cliff" when debt becomes unmanageable. One has to wonder the sustainability of our living systems when all is about the Now and the Present, with little regard for the future. If we could just give a little thought to the past and reflect on some of the misassumptions and mistakes we've made and give ourselves a break. We're still just a nascent global civilization that's analogous to a living thing that only gets a few chances to figure out how to make it's way in the world before it falls off a cliff. If it's just a matter of having gotten off on the wrong foot, does it make sense for the other foot to knowingly follow blindly? All I know is that if we let ourselves get mean when the water-hole shrinks instead of figuring out a more humane way of dealing with mass insolvency we'll probably sink back into the oblivion whence other defunct civilizations have disappeared. Maybe hitting a big reset button arising out of a combination of something like a debt Jubilee and Potlatch would work. Reset everyone's account to 0 issue equal shares in the planet to trade barter or sell to get the economic juices flowing again but this time try to implement some of the hard earned lessons of the past, like the dangers of way way too much opacity in our governance for example. Edited October 11, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CPCFTW Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) And you think this is the correct approach for universities to take? Students need to take the correct courses from their freshman year in order to graduate with a teaching degree 6 years later. By the time policies are implemented and requirements are changed, there's a bit of a lag. In essence, you're saying that universities should predict job-market demands 10 years down the road and base their programs on that kind of crystal-balling. You can get a teaching degree in 4 yrs with a 3yr BA. There are no specialized courses to take during your freshman year. The requirement for entry into teacher's college is a university degree of any kind. If you want to be a teacher, then make your "backup" degree useful in case there are no teaching positions. Also Argus was talking about teacher's college admitting fewer applicants if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps there should be a standardized test of some sort like the gmat, mcat, lsat, etc., so that only the best and brightest are admitted to teacher's college, instead of people like MLW's "socialist". Maybe then their compensation could be justified. Edited October 11, 2012 by CPCFTW Quote
Fletch 27 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 You can become an Ontarion teacher in 1.5 years! I personally know 3 girls that took this course an are now full fledged Union members and teachers: http://www.dyc.edu/academics/education/canadian_teacher/ They are currently trying to shorten the course to 1 year or less as the All-Day Kindergarten that Dalton put in place to add members to the Teachers Union can not hire fast enough.. "Quality teachers for a Quality Student"..... Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 Maybe then their compensation could be justified. Ahh... the old "pay them what's fair" argument. Often used in discussions of unionized positions, not so often used in discussions of CEO salaries... Isn't it "pay ME whatever I can get "? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 All the jobs are in mining and resource extraction anyway, so why don't we just get rid of the universities ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 All the jobs are in mining and resource extraction anyway, so why don't we just get rid of the universities ? And so pfffttt to all that effort to open a bunch of universities in the wake of the received wisdom that hewing wood and hauling water were a waste of time? That seems really weird. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Peeves Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Ahh... the old "pay them what's fair" argument. Often used in discussions of unionized positions, not so often used in discussions of CEO salaries... Isn't it "pay ME whatever I can get "? As wage arbitrations for unions often come down to the employers ability to pay. Since employers in public workers jobs can just raise taxes (as they have for a generation) we simply pay and pay until wages and benefits are no longer sustainable. as I recall the recent Sunshine List for Ontario had some public service employees in the high wages listing. http://www.cbc.ca/ne...shine-list.html The annual release of the sunshine list is an Ontario tradition dating back to the mid-1990s when Mike Harris's Conservative government wanted to expose top-earning civil servants. Edited October 11, 2012 by Peeves Quote
cybercoma Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Posted October 11, 2012 As wage arbitrations for unions often come down to the employers ability to pay. Since employers in public workers jobs can just raise taxes (as they have for a generation) we simply pay and pay until wages and benefits are no longer sustainable. It's not a zero-sum game. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 As wage arbitrations for unions often come down to the employers ability to pay. Since employers in public workers jobs can just raise taxes (as they have for a generation) we simply pay and pay until wages and benefits are no longer sustainable. as I recall the recent Sunshine List for Ontario had some public service employees in the high wages listing. http://www.cbc.ca/ne...shine-list.html They can't continue to raise taxes, though... there is a limit. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Posted October 11, 2012 They can't continue to raise taxes, though... there is a limit. They don't need to raise taxes, they need to increase revenues. It's a subtle, but important difference. Quote
Fletch 27 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 How can the Ministry on Natural Resources increase revenues? How can the RCMP raise resources? How can the OPP raise resources? How can Parks Canada raise resources? one way.... Taxes.. Not so "Subtle" They don't need to raise taxes, they need to increase revenues. It's a subtle, but important difference. Quote
wyly Posted October 11, 2012 Report Posted October 11, 2012 All the jobs are in mining and resource extraction anyway, so why don't we just get rid of the universities ? sarcasm right? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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