Would national daycare equal more Canadian babies?

[carepov]

I don't see any evidence to support those statements. I've seen some evidence the first might be true nationwide, but certainly is not true in Ontario.

We've been through this before on the immigration thread and you did not reply to my post:

Several key facts point away from your theory that immigrants are committing more crimes in Ontario:

1. While overall it may be a valid assumption that a visible minority is an immigrant - this is not the case for Blacks: 45% of Blacks were born in Canada.

2. "Those [immigrants from 2001-2006] headed to Toronto tend to come from India and China."

3. Blacks in the US are over-represented in the criminal system similarly to Canada.

4. There are no "black countries" on the top 10 list for immigrants

...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/immigration/patterns.html (thank you guyser!)

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r144/r144_e.pdf

To me it is looking more and more like increasing our immigration quotas will actually continue to reduce crime in Canada!

There's no evidence the second is true at all, and based on my interaction with immigrants I find it EXTREMELY unlikely. Most seem to know very little about Canada.

I remember reading a piece about giving the citizenship test to average non-immigrant Canadians. Most failed the test miserably and scored way lower than immigrants. Many got basic questions wrong like names of your Premier, leader of the opposition or Provincial capitals. Unfortunately I can't find a link to this.

[Wild Bill]

I remember reading a piece about giving the citizenship test to average non-immigrant Canadians. Most failed the test miserably and scored way lower than immigrants. Many got basic questions wrong like names of your Premier, leader of the opposition or Provincial capitals. Unfortunately I can't find a link to this.

Is it relevant? As I keep saying, it is culture and not race that is important.

When I say that I can't help but notice that many make the mistake of assuming I am saying our traditional British culture is the most superior. This is a wrong assumption.

First of all, one always has to take each issue separately. Context can alter everything.

Second, some immigrant cultures likely are more conscientious about civics than others, or even that of those who are "traditional" Canadians.

There are many differences and to make statements without considering them is like asking a one-armed fisherman to show you how large was the biggest fish he ever caught.

[guyser]

Why don't they? My newspaper just published a detailed map of the ethic mix of various areas where I live. The insurers don't read newspapers?

Because they dont need them.

An area with poor stats is just that, no need to find out what culture race or whatever behind it.

And if they did, they could not set rates based on culutre or race anyhow.

Edited September 21, 2012 by guyser

[Wild Bill]

Because they dont need them.

An area with poor stats is just that, no need to find out what culture race or whatever behind it.

And if they did, they could not set rates based on culutre or race anyhow.

Haven't you been paying attention to what has been happening with insurance rates? They now set them according to postal code.

Which determines your neighbourhood and thus the cultural mix.

My insurance just jumped by over $700, from $1300 to $2000 per year. Perfect record, almost 60 and drive less than 300 kms per month. All because I bought an old house in the older part of town. I am giving up my van. There are buses and I'm getting an electric motorscooter. I worked it out and every time I make a round trip of maybe 10 blocks for groceries I am paying nearly $25 just for the insurance.

It would be cheaper to take a cab!

Neighbourhoods tend to predominate with a certain culture. True, there are many like me that don't fit the profile but why should an insurance company care?

They just charge ALL of us!

[wyly]

I remember reading a piece about giving the citizenship test to average non-immigrant Canadians. Most failed the test miserably and scored way lower than immigrants. Many got basic questions wrong like names of your Premier, leader of the opposition or Provincial capitals. Unfortunately I can't find a link to this.

I can verify that for myself...when in high school my kids brought home a sample citizenship test from school, they said most of their class failed, I passed...

[guyser]

Haven't you been paying attention to what has been happening with insurance rates? They now set them according to postal code.

Yes I try to keep up.

Which determines your neighbourhood and thus the cultural mix.

Thats better.

My insurance just jumped by over $700, from $1300 to $2000 per year. Perfect record, almost 60 and drive less than 300 kms per month. All because I bought an old house in the older part of town. I

Understood, you moved into an area that has a high incidence of claims. Its the way it has always been.

[wyly]

Because they dont need them.

An area with poor stats is just that, no need to find out what culture race or whatever behind it.

And if they did, they could not set rates based on culutre or race anyhow.

my neighbourhood in calgary has the highest immigrant population 38%, and it's also has the 2nd lowest crime rate .012 per capita, 209 reported incidents in 2009 the majority mischief(stupid kids)...

crime is related to poverty not race, immigrants(not refugees) are generally well educated and motivated crime is not on their list of first things to do when they arrive in canada...

[Wild Bill]

my neighbourhood in calgary has the highest immigrant population 38%, and it's also has the 2nd lowest crime rate .012 per capita, 209 reported incidents in 2009 the majority mischief(stupid kids)...

crime is related to poverty not race, immigrants(not refugees) are generally well educated and motivated crime is not on their list of first things to do when they arrive in canada...

I disagree. My neighbourhood is perhaps the poorest part of the city, yet there is no evidence of any crime at all.

Frankly, assuming poor people are all dishonest seems unfair, to me.

I also don't see what race has to do with crime either. Some cultures may be more disposed towards crime, such as the Roma of Europe but we see criminals of all sorts of cultural backgrounds.

We live in a Star Trek society. Just because we see a visible minority face is no reason to assume it belongs to a new, immigrant culture. It may well belong to a 5th generation Canadian.

Again I say it, race today is irrelevant!

[guyser]

crime is related to poverty not race, immigrants(not refugees) are generally well educated and motivated crime is not on their list of first things to do when they arrive in canada...

However it is well known (and seen on news tlast week) they are tending to form fraud circles to rip off the auto insurance carriers.

But not nearly as bad as the body shops and adjusters.

[carepov]

Is it relevant?

Here is the relevancy:

In the OP, Mr. Canada says: "I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian."

I introduced two potential measurements for "love of country" and/or "pride in being Canadian"

1. Love of country = abiding by the Law. Undisputed fact: On average, Canadian immigrants do this better than non-immigrants.

2. Love and pride of country = knowledge of country's geography, history and civics. My claim: The average immigrant has more knowledge of Canada than the average non-immigrant.

We could add more:

-voter turnout

-attendance at hockey games

-CBC viewership

-number of Celine Dion songs on playlist

Why would any reasonable person claim that immigrants "love Canada" less than non-immigrants?

As I keep saying, it is culture and not race that is important.

When I say that I can't help but notice that many make the mistake of assuming I am saying our traditional British culture is the most superior. This is a wrong assumption.

First of all, one always has to take each issue separately. Context can alter everything.

Second, some immigrant cultures likely are more conscientious about civics than others, or even that of those who are "traditional" Canadians.

There are many differences and to make statements without considering them is like asking a one-armed fisherman to show you how large was the biggest fish he ever caught.

I don’t understand what you are talking about.

[dre]

Why would any reasonable person claim that immigrants "love Canada" less than non-immigrants?

My question is why would we even consider such a factor?

This isnt a monarchy where people have to bow before the mighty state and kiss its ass. In an immigrant we simply need someone thats going to work, pay taxes, and obey the law.

The last thing we need is more flag waving drones.

Edited September 21, 2012 by dre

[The_Squid]

Is it relevant? As I keep saying, it is culture and not race that is important.

You wrote that the person could play the "race card" and make trouble for the employer. How could a Caucasian (your new claim) immigrant do that? so it has nothing to do with race now.... Or human rights tribunals? It's a cultural thing.... So is this culture "lazy"? Do they steal? Not sure where this has gone or what the issue is anymore.....

I've no extra pride in being canadian but I'm not ashamed of it either I see myself as no better or worse than citizens of other nations... overt patriotism/nationalism should be considered a mental health issue, it's dangerous and is ranks right up there with militant religions for causing hatred, death and destruction...it serves no purpose but to control the masses for political means, it's an artificial tribalism...

Totally agree Wyly. Being Canadian is an accident of birth, unless one has immigrated. Nationalism is definitely dangerous.

[wyly]

However it is well known (and seen on news tlast week) they are tending to form fraud circles to rip off the auto insurance carriers.

But not nearly as bad as the body shops and adjusters.

I had "white" canadian born friends doing that 40 years ago...

crime is tied to poverty, statistics will confirm it...

[Wild Bill]

Here is the relevancy:

In the OP, Mr. Canada says: "I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian."

I introduced two potential measurements for "love of country" and/or "pride in being Canadian"

1. Love of country = abiding by the Law. Undisputed fact: On average, Canadian immigrants do this better than non-immigrants.

2. Love and pride of country = knowledge of country's geography, history and civics. My claim: The average immigrant has more knowledge of Canada than the average non-immigrant.

We could add more:

-voter turnout

-attendance at hockey games

-CBC viewership

-number of Celine Dion songs on playlist

Why would any reasonable person claim that immigrants "love Canada" less than non-immigrants?

I don’t understand what you are talking about.

Sorry. I wasn't really on Mr. Canada's side in this thread.

Also, before I can calm down enough to give you a civilized response, could you please edit out the name "Celine Dion" and replace it with "Rush"?

[Tilter]

I'm curious about this. Would more government incentives such as national subsidized daycare and more added benefits equal more Canadians having more babies? We have to find a way to make having babies more rewarding so that we can rely less on outside sources for our ongoing shortage. I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian.

day care does not cause babies but in some cases having kids in daycare can create oportunities to cause more babies :D

[Mr.Canada]

Some people don't have children because of the costs of having children. It isn't cheap. So I thought some sort of national daycare strategy may help more Canadian families have more children.

[Wild Bill]

Some people don't have children because of the costs of having children. It isn't cheap. So I thought some sort of national daycare strategy may help more Canadian families have more children.

Maybe, but as I've said before, when people are very insecure about their jobs I don't think even free daycare would help.

[wyly]

Maybe, but as I've said before, when people are very insecure about their jobs I don't think even free daycare would help.

and in countries where there is daycare and strong social support network birthrate is still low...the more educated the population the lower the birth rate...

[BC_chick]

I'm curious about this. Would more government incentives such as national subsidized daycare and more added benefits equal more Canadians having more babies? We have to find a way to make having babies more rewarding so that we can rely less on outside sources for our ongoing shortage. I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian.

Right and in the next breath you complain that second and third generation immigrants stay in their ethnic ghettos and keep their hyphenated labels.

As for daycare, it might tip the scale for some but overall I don't think financial help in the first five years would tremendously impact what is essentially a lifelong commitment.

[wyly]

Right and in the next breath you complain that second and third generation immigrants stay in their ethnic ghettos and keep their hyphenated labels.

As for daycare, it might tip the scale for some but overall I don't think financial help in the first five years would tremendously impact what is essentially a lifelong commitment.

daycare won't a difference to population growth but it would allow more women to re-enter the workforce, child care takes many out of production for 5-10 yrs and many never return...

[BC_chick]

daycare won't a difference to population growth but it would allow more women to re-enter the workforce, child care takes many out of production for 5-10 yrs and many never return...

No argument there, but that's not really the topic of this thread.