More Than Just Teachers

[gunrutz]

yes it is a misconception that the ignorant often say that its about money. educators fought for smaller class sizes because they care about their learners.

Yes, and smaller class sizes doesn't make for easier work for the teacher, nah.

[westguy]

not too many professions have the many responsibilities this poster states. an accountant is an accountant...that's all. a teacher has 20 other jobs.

surely you cant be suggesting that other professions are not stressful...

[westguy]

What it does is let the ignorant masses know that the job of a teacher is WAY more than just teaching.

why do you assume that everyone who is not a teacher is 'ignorant" Oh, I see,, is it becz some of us disagree with your self-important view of the world??

[madmax]

why do you assume that everyone who is not a teacher is 'ignorant" Oh, I see,, is it becz some of us disagree with your self-important view of the world??

I have no problem with teachers, and Socialist isn't a teacher.

I don't even think Socialist is a "Socialist" based on the posts I have read.

So far the positions taken by Socialist have been both provocative and naive let alone successfully promoting the values of teaching or even the value of collective bargaining.

If I had a "What NOT to do" to win the hearts and minds or make a valued argument as to the role of teachers within society, I would point towards the posts of "socialist".

The Ignorant comment is again offensive and naive. Especially on a forum such as MLW were I have seen very valid positions and arguments put forth.

I would suggest that what M. Hardener has put forward throughout these threads is closer to the norm and accurate as to the nature of collective bargaining.

From there, I might suggest that people could make arguments pro and con for such actions.

Such as....

Smaller class sizes are a win for both the students and the teachers.

I would also suggest that Mr. Hardener clearly identified a marketing feel good piece at which is the heart of this post.

These kinds of marketing tools are used on facebook and emails and their purpose is to be used a chain letter of sorts to sway opinion or simply make people feel good or motivated about a particular issue , group, or idea.

[socialist]

why do you assume that everyone who is not a teacher is 'ignorant" Oh, I see,, is it becz some of us disagree with your self-important view of the world??

because i am a trained educator and know more on the subject than you. we aren't teachers anymore, we are EDUCATORS. and kids aren't students anymore they are LEARNERS. at least get the terminology correct. we are not living in the 60s anymore.

[socialist]

And the current one is a Dunce Cap

more ignorance by someone who is stuck in the 60s. i cant believe the constant stupidity on this forum.

[GostHacked]

Lol, yes, teachers are responsible for our future, more then say peoples parents, because no one that has been home schooled ever does anything useful, or even people who quit school aren't ever successful. Im sure since many of the pro athletes out there had gym class they wouldn't have succeeded without it, or that if your teacher isn't making 80k/year they won't be able to teach well, it's a silly notion. No one is saying that teachers don't perform an important function, but they don't have peoples lives in their hands, and they don't need to be exceptionally intelligent to do the job. If the government decides to pay less teachers can choose to do something else, there is no shortage of teachers waiting for others to retire who would be more than happy to do that job for a lot less, let alone a wage freeze. Perhaps there are too many old teachers hanging on simply because the job is that easy, why retire.

Well then we need to screen the quality of the teachers better. If they are not intelligent to teach, why the hell would I subject my child to that kind of sub-par education?

I don't want a teacher that regurgitates the state curriculum. You can do that with things like math and physics, but I want a teacher who can THINK and do what is best for the kids. Giving them a pass on an assignment they simply failed to do is one huge reason people should not accept this bull no zero policy.

Try pulling that in university and see how far you go.

[GostHacked]

more ignorance by someone who is stuck in the 60s. i cant believe the constant stupidity on this forum.

You can always just quit and go find another forum that is suited to your line of thinking. But if you give up now, you might just get a zero for your performance.

[socialist]

Well then we need to screen the quality of the teachers better. If they are not intelligent to teach, why the hell would I subject my child to that kind of sub-par education?

I don't want a teacher that regurgitates the state curriculum. You can do that with things like math and physics, but I want a teacher who can THINK and do what is best for the kids. Giving them a pass on an assignment they simply failed to do is one huge reason people should not accept this bull no zero policy.

Try pulling that in university and see how far you go.

That post reveals how little you know about public education and how universities have canged and continue to change. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!!!

[GostHacked]

That post reveals how little you know about public education and how universities have canged and continue to change. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!!!

You simply cannot be taken seriously with a name like 'socialist'.

You also spelled 'changed' wrong.

[socialist]

You simply cannot be taken seriously with a name like 'socialist'.

You also spelled 'changed' wrong.

yeah, gosthacked is a name to be taken seriously. Those who attack spelling mistakes have lost the argument.

[GostHacked]

yeah, gosthacked is a name to be taken seriously. Those who attack spelling mistakes have lost the argument.

Well, apparently as a teacher .. sorry EDUCATOR, you might want to at least have a grasp on grammar and spelling. Or at least right click and use the spell check option if you are not sure, if at least to make it seem like you know what you are talking about.

[socialist]

Well, apparently as a teacher .. sorry EDUCATOR, you might want to at least have a grasp on grammar and spelling. Or at least right click and use the spell check option if you are not sure, if at least to make it seem like you know what you are talking about.

When was the last decade you stepped into a public school?

[GostHacked]

When was the last decade you stepped into a public school?

Now we have reached the 'grasping at straws' stage of your argument.

[socialist]

Now we have reached the 'grasping at straws' stage of your argument.

I'm serious. How can you pretend to be an authority on public education if you really don't know what is happening in them, which appears to be the case?

[wyly]

surely you cant be suggesting that other professions are not stressful...

lots of jobs have stress true, I've spent a lifetime in construction and we have our share of insane client, boss stress, sub-contractor stress, deadline stress, employee stress, anything that can go wrong at the worst possible time will stress...but none that compared to the combination of parent/child stress when I coached, it's the worst kind of stress and coaching isn't any different than teaching only the subject matter differs... Edited September 22, 2012 by wyly

[GostHacked]

I'm serious. How can you pretend to be an authority on public education if you really don't know what is happening in them, which appears to be the case?

I am not pretending to be, nor am I am expert on it. It just seems I have an opinion that is not popular with socialists.

[socialist]

I am not pretending to be, nor am I am expert on it. It just seems I have an opinion that is not popular with socialists.

I don't even know why I'm arguing with an Alex Jones fan. What's the latest nutjob conspiracy?

[GostHacked]

I don't even know why I'm arguing with an Alex Jones fan. What's the latest nutjob conspiracy?

Sweet, straight on to personal attacks. Since your argument is failing, (more like you got a new one torn, and not just from me) you got desperate and went this way. But congratulations, usually I see these kind of personal deflecting strawman arguments at least on page 6. Bravo!

[madmax]

I am not pretending to be, nor am I am expert on it. It just seems I have an opinion that is not popular with socialists.

I have an opninon that is popular with socialists and capitalists and people in general.

I am not pretending to be nor am I an expert.

I would say when the vast number of posters be it left or right or centre on the spectrum disagree with the "Educator in training"

It has more to do with life experience, common sense, general decorum and the ability to debate a policy or issue.

[Melanie_]

That post reveals how little you know about public education and how universities have canged and continue to change. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!!!

Failure is absolutely an option at the post secondary level. If you don't do the work, you don't get the mark, or the credit. And it costs you $$$ to take the course again. Teachers who blindly pass students in elementary and secondary school are not doing them any favours.

[Guest American Woman]

...but none that compared to the combination of parent/child stress when I coached, it's the worst kind of stress and coaching isn't any different than teaching only the subject matter differs...

Unless you were getting paid for it, ie: it was your occupation, there's a big difference between coaching and teaching right there, as you can walk away from it and teachers depend on it for their livelihood. I agree with you, though - teachers have all the stress that you mentioned - "lots of jobs have stress true, I've spent a lifetime in construction and we have our share of insane client, boss stress, sub-contractor stress, deadline stress, employee stress, anything that can go wrong at the worst possible time will stress..." plus the combination of parent/child stress; and teachers' job performance and evaluation depends upon the performance of the students, many who just don't give a damn no matter how hard the teacher tries to motivate and/or students who know that the teacher is virtually powerless to discipline ... and of course there are parents on both ends of the spectrum to 'deal' with - parents who just aren't ever there for their kids and those who think little Johnny can do no wrong.

[socialist]

Failure is absolutely an option at the post secondary level. If you don't do the work, you don't get the mark, or the credit. And it costs you $$$ to take the course again. Teachers who blindly pass students in elementary and secondary school are not doing them any favours.

Zeros crush the confidence of learners. research has proven that, and educational experts agree, and that is why these beneficial no zero policies are in place. Talk to any educational expert and you will understand. until you do that you will continue to sound ignorant of the facts.

[bleeding heart]

Zeros crush the confidence of learners. research has proven that, and educational experts agree, and that is why these beneficial no zero policies are in place. Talk to any educational expert and you will understand. until you do that you will continue to sound ignorant of the facts.

Well, if it's a matter of student confidence, can't you imagine scenarios in which a "no zero" policy will hurt confidence? Say, for example, a student makes a real effort, but doesn't understand the material, or does it all wrong...and he gets a fairly poor grade.

What is this student to think when another, who has literally made zero effort, gets a similar grade?

[Melanie_]

Zeros crush the confidence of learners. research has proven that, and educational experts agree, and that is why these beneficial no zero policies are in place. Talk to any educational expert and you will understand. until you do that you will continue to sound ignorant of the facts.

Do you have any actual research to cite to support your position? I'd like to see the data. Children's confidence has to be authentic to have any value - false confidence just sets them up for a bigger disappointment later on.

I don't believe that giving someone a mark they have not earned does anything to increase their confidence. Instead, it contributes to their feeling like a fraud, and undermines the value of their educational experience. I failed a course in my first year of University, and had to take it again to fill the requirements for my degree. The second time around I got an A, and felt much more confident in my knowledge of the subject matter. I was also able to understand more advanced concepts in other courses. It is far better to give someone the opportunity to master the concepts, even if it means taking a course over again, than to have them go on to build new knowledge on a shaky base.