Organic Food not better for you

[carepov]

We are among the most wasteful in the world, and also when it comes to water waste and energy waste!

The easiest thing we could do, that would have the biggest immediate impact is to CONSERVE...

Manny and GH, you are correct.

This wasteful behavior by Canadians suggests to me that we are unaware/apathetic towards the hunger and suffering of billions of people in our world. Unfortunately, your earlier ignorant remarks about people suffeing from Vitamin A deficiency show that you are typical Canadians.

[GostHacked]

Manny and GH, you are correct.

This wasteful behavior by Canadians suggests to me that we are unaware/apathetic towards the hunger and suffering of billions of people in our world.

So what is wrong with diversifying what you eat? If the area is not conducive towards certain types of crops (makes sense cause some things are based on climate) why not import those products like most other countries do?

Unfortunately, your earlier ignorant remarks about people suffeing from Vitamin A deficiency show that you are typical Canadians.

We live in such a wasteful society in all aspects, if we managed to reduce the waste to 50% of what it is now, there would be enough to feed every Canadian quite well no matter what their salary bracket is.

[Guest Manny]

Manny and GH, you are correct.

This wasteful behavior by Canadians suggests to me that we are unaware/apathetic towards the hunger and suffering of billions of people in our world. Unfortunately, your earlier ignorant remarks about people suffeing from Vitamin A deficiency show that you are typical Canadians.

Thanks. But typical Canadians are people who want to help, or prefer to at least know that what they have was acquired without causing undue suffering of others. I think typical Canadians would want to reduce waste as much as possible. But the technology to do so is not encouraged... it has to be easy to do.

Sure, many Canadians would like to help everybody if they could. But we're not obligated to help the whole world, at all costs. What we need to do is help people to help themselves. That's the only meaningful help there is. And in my view it needs to be done in a way that is simple and makes sense.

My personal opinion is that a lot more could be done for people in Africa or Asia as far as their health goes, but the game is also controlled by big money powers, even by military powers. So that we citizens who think we can help are pissing in the wind, as far as that goes. And to go to such extents as genetic engineering when natural choices are already available, is absurd. In my opinion

Edited October 1, 2012 by Manny

[carepov]

So what is wrong with diversifying what you eat? If the area is not conducive towards certain types of crops (makes sense cause some things are based on climate) why not import those products like most other countries do?

We live in such a wasteful society in all aspects, if we managed to reduce the waste to 50% of what it is now, there would be enough to feed every Canadian quite well no matter what their salary bracket is.

You keep referring to life in Canada; perhaps one day you should try travelling to a developing or under-developed part of the world to understand what I’m talking about. I can’t believe that you are still not grasping the idea that billions of people cannot choose what they eat. Hundreds of millions rely on almost exclusively rice to survive. Yes, this is not fair and we should try to help but this is today’s reality.

Simply put we have a trade-off: development of Golden Rice to prevent Vitamin A deficiency for millions or “a safe feeling” for people like you and Manny.

[carepov]

Thanks. But typical Canadians are people who want to help, or prefer to at least know that what they have was acquired without causing undue suffering of others. I think typical Canadians would want to reduce waste as much as possible. But the technology to do so is not encouraged... it has to be easy to do.

Sure, many Canadians would like to help everybody if they could. But we're not obligated to help the whole world, at all costs. What we need to do is help people to help themselves. That's the only meaningful help there is. And in my view it needs to be done in a way that is simple and makes sense.

My personal opinion is that a lot more could be done for people in Africa or Asia as far as their health goes, but the game is also controlled by big money powers, even by military powers. So that we citizens who think we can help are pissing in the wind, as far as that goes. And to go to such extents as genetic engineering when natural choices are already available, is absurd. In my opinion

What could be simpler and more logical than to introduce beta carotene into rice?

By the way, as pointed out in previous posts that you did not refute, genetic engineering is as “natural” as, and safer than the last 1000 years of conventional farming.

People like you and GostHacked are (unintentionally) stalling a solution that would help millions of people.

[GostHacked]

You keep referring to life in Canada; perhaps one day you should try travelling to a developing or under-developed part of the world to understand what I’m talking about. I can’t believe that you are still not grasping the idea that billions of people cannot choose what they eat.

Well this eludes to the problem I raised in this thread. It's a distribution problem and not really a food crisis issue. We have so much food available to us in North America it's a damn shame. We waste so much and wonder why people in other places do not have enough to eat.

Hundreds of millions rely on almost exclusively rice to survive. Yes, this is not fair and we should try to help but this is today’s reality.

So what changed besides population? Asia has been eating rice for centuries. But there are many foods that contain Vitamin A and I would suspect you can grow some of those items in the climates in Asia.

Simply put we have a trade-off: development of Golden Rice to prevent Vitamin A deficiency for millions or “a safe feeling” for people like you and Manny.

Maybe we should send them the vegetables that us Canadians don't eat. The article I posted indicated that Canadians wastes 27 BILLION dollars worth of food per year. That is terrible. I am guilty of buying food, never eating it and then throwing it out. So I have changed my habits to by fewer items, but I end up making 2-3 trips to the grocery store per week.

That can happen right now. The GMO rice is still in a testing phase. And considering how this golden rice experiment went, and one Chinese official was canned because of it, tells me that not only do the GMOs need more testing, but they need proper testing in an open disclosed environment. Increase the testing from the current 3 months, to 12 months or 24 months. Three months is not even enough time to test them growing in the fields, let alone what this stuff may do to you once consumed.

Everything in North America is SUPAH SIZED !!! Maybe we should just cut back on the amount of food we eat. Judging by waste lines (mine included) people can stand to skip a meal, and perhaps get off their asses once in a while.

So my answer is to diversify what people grow and what people eat. Variety is the spice of life, so I am told.

I also want to point out one thing that was said in these threads about displacing animals for more farmland. My reply is what about the urban sprawl that is displacing/consuming farmland for urban development? I've seen much of that happen in and around the Ottawa area over the past 15 years I have been living here.

[Wayward Son]

I would also add that we are headed to a peak population estimated at anywhere from 9 - 10 billion. Feeding these people requires either much more land under cultivation or much more food produced per hectare. GM will lead to more food production per farmland. Organic farming will lead to less and therefore requires more farmland. I will also comment that GH promotes that idea of more trees to deal with climate change. An idea that would damn hard to accomplish while purposefully using farming methods that are less efficient in order to please a small percentage of people who see imaginary dragons when it comes to GMOs.

[GostHacked]

What could be simpler and more logical than to introduce beta carotene into rice?

No it would be more logical to diverse your crops. Or import to make up the deficiency. That is a solution that can happen right at this moment, it is available. The GMO rice is still being tested and may not live up to the hype.

By the way, as pointed out in previous posts that you did not refute, genetic engineering is as “natural” as, and safer than the last 1000 years of conventional farming.

Genetic manipulation by humans is not natural. And I contest it is not as safe as farming has been over the last 1000 years. GMOs have been on the scene for about 20 years at the most. On your time scale, it's 0.2% that we have been consuming GMOs.

People like you and GostHacked are (unintentionally) stalling a solution that would help millions of people.

I am doing it intentionally.

[Guest Manny]

The situation they are in now started decades ago and was exacerbated by greedy people. Governments, militias, corporate business interests. It's to the advantage of the system that some areas remain destabilized, and poor.

So the part that does not sit well with me is that there was no serious preventive measures, planning, forethought in preparing for famine situations, because that was not economically attractive.

But what IS economically attractive is to make a whole new genetic technology, with all the research, R&D money, copyrights, patents, exclusive distribution of seed rights. It's a money maker, and that's why they want to do it.

[Guest Manny]

What could be simpler and more logical than to introduce beta carotene into rice?

Shipping them our carrots?

[carepov]

Shipping them our carrots?

Good idea, lets work together on this!

How about you get in touch with some organic farmers, I'll contact FedEx. Oh wait, in case someone is pro-union we should stick with Canada Post, eh?

OK, 124,000,000 people suffer from Vitamin A deficiency, and lets say we need about double to account for waste and other people eating them, so 250,000,000 million people. How many average-sized carrots does one need, say about one every 2 days? So that puts us at 875,000,000 carrots per week or 3,750,000,000 per month or 45,625,000,000 per year. No problem, what do you think?

[GostHacked]

Good idea, lets work together on this!

How about you get in touch with some organic farmers, I'll contact FedEx. Oh wait, in case someone is pro-union we should stick with Canada Post, eh?

OK, 124,000,000 people suffer from Vitamin A deficiency, and lets say we need about double to account for waste and other people eating them, so 250,000,000 million people. How many average-sized carrots does one need, say about one every 2 days? So that puts us at 875,000,000 carrots per week or 3,750,000,000 per month or 45,625,000,000 per year. No problem, what do you think?

I could pull hypothetical numbers out of the air as well. If you need to double to account for waste, then you really need to focus on reducing the waste, plain and simple.

There are other foods that have a good dose of Vitamin A. But I guess sticking a carrot out in front of someone helps string them along.

[GostHacked]

And we also have things like this that put things in a bad light.

http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/newsrelease/13169

Amid a growing food crisis, this morning workers from the City of Toronto were ordered by City of Toronto

Parks Director Richard Ubbens to remove all live plants and food from the People's Peas Garden in Queens Park. They were ordered to take the plants and food to the dump and lay sod overtop of this most beautiful free community food garden, without warning, without a chance to remove the rare heirloom plant species or harvest the food.

The garden was planted by Occupy Gardens and allies on May 1st, in defense of local and global food security. While the garden has been growing undisturbed for nearly 5 months, with the help of hundreds in the community, the city deliberately decided to have it removed upon the eve of the Autumn Jam: A Harvest Party and celebration of sharing, community and free local food, which is happening tomorrow from 12-6pm at the garden in Queens Park (northwest section).

The reason? The people did not have permission to grow free food on public land.

Seems like a crappy reason and also why would they wait 5 months before doing anything about it? Lots of food wasted.

[carepov]

I could pull hypothetical numbers out of the air as well. If you need to double to account for waste, then you really need to focus on reducing the waste, plain and simple.

There are other foods that have a good dose of Vitamin A. But I guess sticking a carrot out in front of someone helps string them along.

Great, Manny and I can use your help.

OK we will make sure that no carrots go bad and that only people that are suffering from Vitamin A deficiency get one. Awesome, you have solved half the problem! Manny, I hope that you get this message before you get to the farmer's market. We only need 22,630,000 carrots (or other similar foods) annually.

[GostHacked]

Great, Manny and I can use your help.

OK we will make sure that no carrots go bad and that only people that are suffering from Vitamin A deficiency get one. Awesome, you have solved half the problem! Manny, I hope that you get this message before you get to the farmer's market. We only need 22,630,000 carrots (or other similar foods) annually.

We can export some from Canada. Since we waste so much food, might as well divert some of it to China. That would also increase sales from our farmers and possibly increase the demand for carrots. Win win all around.

[carepov]

But what IS economically attractive is to make a whole new genetic technology, with all the research, R&D money, copyrights, patents, exclusive distribution of seed rights. It's a money maker, and that's why they want to do it.

None of what you say applies to Golden Rice.

Who is "they"?

[GostHacked]

None of what you say applies to Golden Rice.

Who is "they"?

All of that exactly applies to Golden Rice.

[carepov]

All of that exactly applies to Golden Rice.

Once developed, Golden Rice will be given free to subsistence farmers. It can be re-sown every year from the saved harvest. There is no benefit to industry - only poor people.

[segnosaur]

The problem isn't the amount that you post... its that what you post is wrong.

That's only your opinion...

No, some things you've said have been downright wrong...

...and it means nothing to me. you and everyone else has been wrong here too, many times and I recall calling you out on the flu shots during flu season.

Actually, I wasn't wrong on the issue of flu immunnization.

The only way you can consider youself "right" is the same way a child does... stick your finger in your ears and go "LA LA LA... I'm not listening" whenever contradictory evidence is presented.

The difference is that some people get off on calling others out if they thing they're wrong, while being wrong themselves is forgiveable (so they think) or at best,concealable.

I am willing to admit I'm wrong and/or change my views/opinions, if presented with proper facts.

On the other hand, someone posting their own 'nonsense' opinions, with no evidence to back them up, is not exactly going to be convincing.

I am not wrong on these things, it is my opinion that GMO is not preferable.

Depends on why you consider it not preferable, and that Organic methods are better....

If you consider it perferable that thousands of people will suffer and die needlessly, and that hundreds of acres of forests will be plowed under to grow more farmland to grow crops, then you're right... its preferable to stick to organic methods.

Its safety is questionable...

Yet steps have been taken to control the risks.

Of course, how 'safe' is it to let thousands of people suffer and die from Vitamin A deficiency? How safe is it to plow under forests for farm land because you prefer to use inefficient farming techniques?

...and a lot of people, real scientists are concerned about it.

I see... care to post a few of these "real scientists", and what exactly they're concerned about?

Oh, yeah, that's right... you don't concern yourself with things like that.

That is what I said several posts ago, so no need for me to waste time posting pages of stuff you won't believe in anyway.

Why should I believe anyone who gets things wrong as often as you do, and who doesn't bother posting any real facts to verify?

[Guest Manny]

Why should I believe anyone who gets things wrong as often as you do, and who doesn't bother posting any real facts to verify?

i have no idea what you're on about, but since it seems largely ad-hominem, it will go largely ignored!

Yawn...

[Guest Manny]

Carrots are a fantastic vegetable because they are easily grown, full of nutrients and can be stored and transported for a long time without going bad.

Since many farm areas are shut down, land gone to disuse it should be easy to start up the crops again.

Easier yet, send the seeds to countries who want to grow them. Nice, natural carrots... like mom used to make.

Please explain why the people in Asia who are dying wont grow it or eat it. Why will they only eat your GMO golden rice.

[segnosaur]

Re: Golden Rice being a 'money maker'...

All of that exactly applies to Golden Rice.

Once developed, Golden Rice will be given free to subsistence farmers. It can be re-sown every year from the saved harvest. There is no benefit to industry - only poor people.

Yup, a point I mentioned to them way back in post 193 (see: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21409&st=180&p=833723entry833723)

You see, that's the problem with Manny and GhostHacked... Even when they've already been provided with facts that challenge their opinion, they prefer to repeat their B.S.

Why should we pay any attention to what they post if they don't even bother reading what others have stated?

[segnosaur]

Easier yet, send the seeds to countries who want to grow them. Nice, natural carrots... like mom used to make.

Please explain why the people in Asia who are dying wont grow it or eat it. Why will they only eat your GMO golden rice.

Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick.... this has already been explained to you.

Once again:

Rice: Requires ample rainfall, and is often grown by 'flooding' the soil. Grows well in clay soil

Carrots: Require well drained soil, without clay

So Carrots do not grow well in the areas that Rice grows in.

http://vasat.icrisat.org/?q=node/299

http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/cultivation2.html

[segnosaur]

The situation they are in now started decades ago and was exacerbated by greedy people. Governments, militias, corporate business interests. It's to the advantage of the system that some areas remain destabilized, and poor.

Well this eludes to the problem I raised in this thread. It's a distribution problem and not really a food crisis issue. We have so much food available to us in North America it's a damn shame. We waste so much and wonder why people in other places do not have enough to eat.

Now, I'm going to let you both in on a little secret. Now, don't be shocked by what I have to tell you...

But, the world is not a perfect place.

There, I said it. Yeah, I know, you're probably stunned.

Yes, there are corrupt dictatorships in the world. Yes, there is poverty. As well as many other barriers to getting proper food aid to various parts of the world. As much as I would like to waive a little magic wand and make all of the problems go away, it ain't going to happen.

Yes, we could ship them all the extra carrots we have. But there's no guarantee that they will actually be distributed to the people that need them.

So, the best solution is to allow them to be self sufficient... and allowing them to grow Golden Rice would allow a subsistence farmer to survive without external aid, immune from regional or global politics.

Oh, and by the way, 2 other points:

- Even if we could distribute our excess food to the 3rd world, I pointed out before that if we stuck to Organic farming techniques only, we'd only have enough food to feed 4 billion people There are 7 billion people in the planet. It is modern "non-organic" farming techniques that have allowed us to have the excess food that we could distribute.

- I wonder, if we start shipping our extra carrots to sub-saharan africa and south-east Asia, just how much CO2 will be pumped out by the planes/boats making the deliveries?

I also want to point out one thing that was said in these threads about displacing animals for more farmland. My reply is what about the urban sprawl that is displacing/consuming farmland for urban development?

Ummm... the fact that we're doing one thing to screw up the environment (i.e. urban sprawl) doesn't excuse us doing other things to screw up the environment (using inefficient farming techniques.)

It would be like me saying "why is it wrong for me to kill someone, because other people have engaged in armed robbery and haven't been caught".

Now, if you want to start a thread complaining about the effect of urban sprawl, go ahead. Heck, I'd probably even agree that we should be building our cities with a higher population density. But that doesn't excuse other types of anti-environmental activity.

People like you and GostHacked are (unintentionally) stalling a solution that would help millions of people.

I am doing it intentionally.

Why, because you like to see millions of people suffer?

[Wayward Son]

Actually, I wasn't wrong on the issue of flu immunnization.

Wow, I went back and found that thread. I can't fathom how you managed to stay sane dealing with the that level of overwhelming stupidity.