ROC

[Abberon]

Common sense and work ethic are the first that come to mind.

[cybercoma]

Oh please. Everything that Quebec does is constitutionally allowed in any other province. Equalization is a constitutionally mandated program, and, Quebec is not even close to the largest per capita recipient. I really don't understand the hatred for Quebec from other parts of Canada (at least on the part of some people)

And it makes sense too, doesn't it? While the youth and middle-aged folks from NB and PEI head out west to make their fortunes in the oil patch or become teachers out there, they pay their federal taxes like everyone else. Meanwhile, their retired parents back home in NB and PEI get the raw end of the deal because all of the revenue used social assistance for health and the elderly is lost due to their children leaving for work. An end to equalization payments would slow down Quebec, but it would be completely devastating to the Maritimes.

[PIK]

The point of the Equalization program is to ensure that the resources that are within the boundaries and control of one province benefit the entire country, so that everyone is at least on a basic level.

Quebec takes all kinds of resources out of the ground, and that continues to accelerate, but at the moment, none of these bring the kind of money that oil does. Quebec's per capita GDP is less than half that of Alberta's.

But the money quebec makes off of hydro is not added in when the payments are being figured out, so if true, quebec is getting extra.

[cybercoma]

smallc-that doesn't make it fair and equitable to the provinces thyat are coerced into writing Quebec a huge cheque each year

Many posters have provided resources and explained the equalization system to you for awhile now. No province writes a cheque to another province. The federal government collects tax revenues and distributes them. Whether you live in Alberta or PEI, you pay the exact same federal income tax rate. Equalization payments, furthermore, have nothing to do with a province's expenditures. The federal government has a formula for determining fiscal capacity based on the federal average provincial income tax rate, amongst some other things. They then determine the province's fiscal capacity and bring them up to par. If the province chooses not to meet their fiscal capacity by charging a lower tax rate or if they choose to spend more money than they have, this does not change the amount they receive in equalization payments. Equalization is not a windfall for the provinces. As its name suggests, it's design to equalize the provinces, so there can be a certain standard of services delivered across the country. Someone who lives in Alberta and gets relocated to PEI ought to expect some standard for paved roads, health care delivery, schools and social assistance. It's not going to be the same because there is no ceiling on what they can provide. But there rightfully ought to be a floor that provinces shouldn't fall below and that's what the equalization program is meant to ensure. It's meant to be sure that provinces can afford to provide a base level of services from coast to coast.

[waldo]

Quebec has a lot of resources that they don't make use of.

Common sense and work ethic are the first that come to mind.

of course, in the context being discussed, you've taken purposeful liberty with your interpretation of 'resources'... in any case, that's quite a bold assessment of yours to offer up a blanket summation of Quebeker's having no common sense, having no work ethic.

.

[cybercoma]

But the money quebec makes off of hydro is not added in when the payments are being figured out, so if true, quebec is getting extra.

This is not true at all. Income from Québec Hydro is considered just the same as other natural resource revenues, such as forest and mining royalties. That is to say Québec Hydro is one of the biggest factors reducing the amount of money they receive.

[Argus]

Why's that smallc? Does Quebec not have extensive infranstructure and urban centres located on ideal trade channels? Do they not have vast reserves of natural resources? Are they not net exporters of cheap and abundant hydro-electricity? What, exactly, is holding them back, other than their whining?

High taxes, a hostile attitude towards business, a surly, and generally unproductive workforce, and a fixation on French to the exclusion of all other subjects.

[segnosaur]

But the money quebec makes off of hydro is not added in when the payments are being figured out, so if true, quebec is getting extra.

This is not true at all. Income from Québec Hydro is considered just the same as other natural resource revenues, such as forest and mining royalties.

May not be exactly true.

From: http://o.canada.com/2012/10/10/1011-equalization/

The current equalization program calculates 50 per cent of a province’s natural resource revenues in determining its revenue-generating ability — or “fiscal capacity” — and whether it deserves an annual equalization payment. But the economic value of hydroelectricity isn’t necessarily calculated the same as oil and gas...Provinces such as Quebec, Manitoba and B.C. sell their abundant hydroelectricity to their consumers at below-market rates, meaning they reap the economic value of the resource through lower electricity prices rather than direct revenues and profits to Crown hydro-generating corporations that could be factored into the equalization program. If the true economic value of the hydroelectricity were calculated, it would amount to a larger fiscal capacity for equalization-receiving provinces such as Quebec and Manitoba and possibly mean billions of dollars less in federal payments sent to those provinces in the coming years.

So, it looks you and PIK are both wrong...

Electricity is considered in the calculation of equalization payments... but its under counted. If the true value of the electricity were used in the calculation, Quebec would loose out on millions in equalization revenue.

Edited June 25, 2013 by segnosaur

[segnosaur]

Many posters have provided resources and explained the equalization system to you for awhile now. No province writes a cheque to another province. The federal government collects tax revenues and distributes them.

Yes, you are correct. You are also nitpicking.

Yes, provinces do not "write cheques to another province". However, from a pragmatic point of view, the flow of funds from provinces like Alberta to provinces like Quebec does impact the ability of Alberta to maintain its infrastructure and care for its people. Saying that they "write a cheque" is just a handy short form of saying that.

As its name suggests, it's design to equalize the provinces, so there can be a certain standard of services delivered across the country. Someone who lives in Alberta and gets relocated to PEI ought to expect some standard for paved roads, health care delivery, schools and social assistance. It's not going to be the same because there is no ceiling on what they can provide. But there rightfully ought to be a floor that provinces shouldn't fall below and that's what the equalization program is meant to ensure. It's meant to be sure that provinces can afford to provide a base level of services from coast to coast.

But, as another poster has said, there is no requirement on what the money is spent on. Thus, you have the situation in Quebec where they have (for example) subsidized daycare, but delivery of other social programs are quite poor.

You also seem to be ignoring the issue of responsibility. Yes, PEI might have to struggle to maintain the same level of roads and health care that Alberta does, but they should at least attempt to run their economy in a way that they can do as much as they can. Quebec doesn't seem to want to do that. Rather than make use of their natural and human resources to try to maximize their ability to pay for their own roads and schools, they are more content to drive their economy into the ground (through things like Quebec nationalism, mismanagement of the economy, etc.) Now, as a province they certainly have the right to do so... but whether they can do something is different than whether they say they should do something.

[cybercoma]

Amazing. A Conservative advocating government management of the economy. How does it feel to be a hardcore socialist?

[Newfoundlander]

This is not true at all. Income from Québec Hydro is considered just the same as other natural resource revenues, such as forest and mining royalties. That is to say Québec Hydro is one of the biggest factors reducing the amount of money they receive.

Al O'Brien, the chairman of the federal government’s 2006 expert panel on equalization, said that "For example, some studies have suggested Quebec could lose billions of dollars in equalization payments if the true value of hydroelectricity were calculated in the program."

http://o.canada.com/2012/10/10/1011-equalization/

[cybercoma]

Saying Quebec undercharges for hydro is entirely different than saying it's not part of the calculations at all.

[segnosaur]

Saying Quebec undercharges for hydro is entirely different than saying it's not part of the calculations at all.

Your exact quote from an earlier post was:

Income from Québec Hydro is considered just the same as other natural resource revenues...

So, as I pointed out, both you and PIK were wrong. He was wrong when he said it wasn't considered at all, and you were wrong when you said that income is considered just the same as other natural resource revenues.

[cybercoma]

It is considered just the same as other resources. What the province charges for those resources is another matter altogether. It's considered as resource income just the same as mining and forestry.

[segnosaur]

It is considered just the same as other resources. What the province charges for those resources is another matter altogether. It's considered as resource income just the same as mining and forestry.

Wow... you really do seem to be on a nit-picking crusade, aren't you.

Electrical utilities are fundamentally different than other resource-based companies. Distribution mechanisms work differently , control is highly centralized, and not subject to the same market forces as oil/gas/mineral resources. The government in Quebec charges less for electricity than it could if it were able to sell it on the free market. This artificially reduces the revenues that would otherwise be used in figuring out equalization payments. The Albertan government does not exert the same ability to artificially reduce the price of gas to Albertan consumers.

In effect, Quebec is "cheating" the system. Now, that may not have been the intention of the Quebec government (i.e. they likely sell electricity cheaply because it caters to their voter base), but it is a byproduct of their policies. If the federal government does attempt to base the equalization formula on their actual potential revenue, it will be interesting to see if Quebec accepts that or starts whining "Wah! You're unfairly targeting us".

[waldo]

In effect, Quebec is "cheating" the system. Now, that may not have been the intention of the Quebec government (i.e. they likely sell electricity cheaply because it caters to their voter base), but it is a byproduct of their policies. If the federal government does attempt to base the equalization formula on their actual potential revenue, it will be interesting to see if Quebec accepts that or starts whining "Wah! You're unfairly targeting us".

whether it's a legitimate criticism/concern, or not... it's a point leveled equally towards both Quebec... and Manitoba: Hydro revenue review off the table:

[segnosaur]

In effect, Quebec is "cheating" the system.

whether it's a legitimate criticism/concern, or not... it's a point leveled equally towards both Quebec... and Manitoba: Hydro revenue review off the table:

You're right... it does affect both Quebec and Manitoba. In case you didn't notice, I already referred to Manitoba in a previous posting. (go back and look at point 233).. .It supposedly even affects BC.

I singled out Quebec for a couple of reasons... first of all, Quebec and their relationship with the rest of Canada was the topic of this post, and secondly, Quebec is usually the most vocal with its complaints. (There have not been any recent referendums on separation held in Manitoba or BC).

If its true that the conservative government has decided to leave the equalization formula as it is, then shame on them. I want the government to treat all provinces fairly, and they're not doing that. (Unfortunately, its not an issue that will affect my vote, since as far as I can tell, no party is pushing to have the equalization formula changed.

[The_Squid]

Equalization is a federal issue. Blaming Quebec is absurd, especially considering the fact that they are doing things the same as BC and Manitoba when it comes to power resources. It shows an anti-Quebec bigoted attitude.

[segnosaur]

Equalization is a federal issue. Blaming Quebec is absurd, especially considering the fact that they are doing things the same as BC and Manitoba when it comes to power resources. It shows an anti-Quebec bigoted attitude.

First of all, while equalization is a federal program, there are sometimes negotiations between the federal government and provinces over what exactly the formula should be.

Secondly, as has been pointed out long ago in this thread, the issue is sometimes not what Quebec gets, but their failure to acknowledge the benefits that they do receive. Quebec has been receiving equalization payments for decades, yet they've held referendums about separating, and most separatists think that separation won't affect their economy. (http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=4431323c-27bc-4342-88e3-cd62c04512dd). When the federal government collects hundreds of millions and dumps it into Quebec's economy, and Separatists think "that's no big deal", then people can't be blamed for questioning why we continue to be so generous with the equalization program.

Simply slapping an "anti-Quebec bigot" label is just empty rhetoric.

[guyser]

Secondly, as has been pointed out long ago in this thread, the issue is sometimes not what Quebec gets, but their failure to acknowledge the benefits that they do receive. Quebec has been receiving equalization payments for decades, yet they've held referendums about separating, and most separatists think that separation won't affect their economy.

Two completely unrelated issues.

[The_Squid]

Secondly, as has been pointed out long ago in this thread, the issue is sometimes not what Quebec gets, but their failure to acknowledge the benefits that they do receive.

That's just a fabricated perceived slight. I've never heard Ontario thank BC for equalization either. And I certainly don't care if a separatist in Quebec acknowledges how great the equalization program is. That's just silly.

It is anti-Quebec bigotry. Once you start criticizing Manitoba and BC for the same thing, then maybe I will believe that this isn't just bigotry. And let's not leave out the federal gov't who actually run the program. But no.... It's all Quebec's fault.

[segnosaur]

Secondly, as has been pointed out long ago in this thread, the issue is sometimes not what Quebec gets, but their failure to acknowledge the benefits that they do receive. Quebec has been receiving equalization payments for decades, yet they've held referendums about separating, and most separatists think that separation won't affect their economy.

Two completely unrelated issues.

Errr... not really.

If Quebec is holding referendums and voting for parties that want to push a separatist agenda, then a significant portion of their population obviously thinks being a separate country is to their benefit. That includes both social/cultural aspects and economic aspects.

An extra $17 billion would certainly be a boon to the economies of most provinces. (It would wipe out Ontario's deficit for example). It would pay for a lot of social programs, infrastructure, or create a lot of jobs if used for economic stimulus. Yet most separatists seem to shrug that off.

[segnosaur]

Secondly, as has been pointed out long ago in this thread, the issue is sometimes not what Quebec gets, but their failure to acknowledge the benefits that they do receive.

That's just a fabricated perceived slight.

Err, not really.

've never heard Ontario thank BC for equalization either.

Last time I checked, there was no significant Ontario sovereignty movement. Unlike Quebec, which receives equalization payments, and says "Hey, thanks for nothing."

And I certainly don't care if a separatist in Quebec acknowledges how great the equalization program is.

If you don't care about such a slap in the face, that's fine. Some people also like getting kicked in the groin. Doesn't mean that those who don't like getting kicked in the groin are "bigots".

It is anti-Quebec bigotry.

Not really

Once you start criticizing Manitoba and BC for the same thing, then maybe I will believe that this isn't just bigotry.

Last time I checked, Manitoba and BC were not holding referendums, and electing separatists to government.

The moment the "Manitoba separatist party" gets into power and holds their first referendum, I will start being more critical of them.

And let's not leave out the federal gov't who actually run the program. But no.... It's all Quebec's fault.

As I've pointed out before, while its the federal government who runs the program, consultations do happen between the feds and the provinces.

Edited June 27, 2013 by segnosaur

[guyser]

Errr... not really.

Sorry, unrelated.

That they may vote for separation is entirely unrelated to the eq program as it exists now

[cybercoma]

Wow... you really do seem to be on a nit-picking crusade, aren't you.

Electrical utilities are fundamentally different than other resource-based companies. Distribution mechanisms work differently , control is highly centralized, and not subject to the same market forces as oil/gas/mineral resources. The government in Quebec charges less for electricity than it could if it were able to sell it on the free market. This artificially reduces the revenues that would otherwise be used in figuring out equalization payments. The Albertan government does not exert the same ability to artificially reduce the price of gas to Albertan consumers.

In effect, Quebec is "cheating" the system. Now, that may not have been the intention of the Quebec government (i.e. they likely sell electricity cheaply because it caters to their voter base), but it is a byproduct of their policies. If the federal government does attempt to base the equalization formula on their actual potential revenue, it will be interesting to see if Quebec accepts that or starts whining "Wah! You're unfairly targeting us".

None of this has anything to do with what I said. All I was pointing out is that hydro electricity is considered in the equalization formula and it's considered in the same way as oil and gas. How the province charges for hydro and runs their utility is another matter altogether and separate from the point I was making. That's not nitpicking at all.