Ontario Teachers Strike

[madmax]

You are not pro teacher union, if you were, you'd be trying to convince the public that their stance is right.

Of course teachers stances have a point. Its McGuintys duplicity that is the issue.

[cybercoma]

Came from here

In Ontario, the average teacher makes $83,500 a year. An experienced elementary-school teacher tops out at more than $92,000 a year. That’s a lot of money for teaching Grade 3 in Thunder Bay. Benefits are generous, and the cost is typically paid entirely by the employer. Then there are the summers off, the job security and the guaranteed pension that begins as early as 55. Someone who qualifies for the full amount will collect $63,000 a year (including CPP), which is considerably more than the highest salaries of U.S. teachers ($54,660, according to pension expert Bill Tufts).

Globe and Mail

Interesting. $92,000 seems quite high and I know a lot of teachers. Comparing them to teachers in the US is not smart either, since Americans when polled generally agree that teachers are grossly underpaid. Here in Canada, you need at least 7 years of post-secondary education before you can even step foot in a classroom. Once you graduate with the minimum two degrees you need to teach, it's very unlikely that you will get a fulltime job. So let's say on average it takes about 3 years supply teaching before someone finds fulltime work as a teacher. That's about 10 years combined (7 years post-secondary + 3 years supply teaching) before the clock starts ticking on that $92,000 per year. Teachers certainly don't start at that. And the other issue you need to look at: Do you want to teach a roomful of 10 year olds? Would you do it for 20 years? Could you handle it for 20 years? I don't think their compensation is completely unreasonable for what they have to do, even if the top bracket sounds high.

Edited September 4, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Oh and by the way, here are the rankings: http://bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Public/BargainingContracts/2011-12SalaryRankings.pdf

Ontario doesn't even have the highest salaries. It's well-known that teaching in the territories gets you the most money. Who the hell wants to move to the Arctic? No one. So they pay more. However, take a look at Alberta. They have the second highest teacher wages.

Note:

Category 5 means 6 or more years of post-secondary training to be a teacher, resulting in 2 degrees. Virtually anyone hired needs to meet at minimum this level even though there are Cat. 1-4. Typically, only supply teachers will be from those categories. For instance, you can begin supply teaching after 2 years of post-secondary education, but it's virtually impossible to get a fulltime teaching job.

Category 6, which is the highest paid tier that Argus is criticizing, means the teacher has taken 6 or more years of post-secondary education totalling 2 degrees (usually BA, BEd) and has earned another graduate level degree (MA, or usually MEd). That brings their total post-secondary education to 9 or more years and it means that they will have 3 accredited degrees.

$92,000 for a job that requires 3 university degrees is not outlandish now that I think about it.

Edited September 4, 2012 by cybercoma

[madmax]

I sure hope they lose all those accumulated sick days. I have 10 days a year myself, if I don't use them I lose them.

Might as well give these teachers a ZERO.

Looks like you have a sweetheart deal as well.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

That does not have to be the case, there are many ways to avoid OT.

Contract, Salary or if the operation has applied and received the 60 hour work week.

Others, like Truck Drivers are often on 60 hour week straight time.

Cab drivers as well.

On top of that regular employees are often subject to hour shifting, such as working 50 hours one week and if in the next 4 weeks they work say 36, there is no OT pay.

On top of that, parttime temp agency workers working over 44 hours often get their hours shifted held back, or swung to a different "employer".

Yes, corporations find loopholes to avoid paying people what they deserve in the absence of a union.

[wyly]

Yes, corporations find loopholes to avoid paying people what they deserve in the absence of a union.

in the restaurant business it's common to keep staff short of the required number of hours that would qualify them as full time employees to avoid paying benefits...

[Argus]

Interesting. $92,000 seems quite high and I know a lot of teachers. Comparing them to teachers in the US is not smart either, since Americans when polled generally agree that teachers are grossly underpaid. Here in Canada, you need at least 7 years of post-secondary education before you can even step foot in a classroom. Once you graduate with the minimum two degrees you need to teach, it's very unlikely that you will get a fulltime job. So let's say on average it takes about 3 years supply teaching before someone finds fulltime work as a teacher. That's about 10 years combined (7 years post-secondary + 3 years supply teaching) before the clock starts ticking on that $92,000 per year. Teachers certainly don't start at that. And the other issue you need to look at: Do you want to teach a roomful of 10 year olds? Would you do it for 20 years? Could you handle it for 20 years? I don't think their compensation is completely unreasonable for what they have to do, even if the top bracket sounds high.

First, Ontario teachers made more than teachers from any nation on the list provided on that cite. Second, if we decide that, say, janitors must have four degrees to do their job, should they get $100k a year? Because clearly, with the exception of certain specialist high school classes, few teachers even need one degree. You don't need seven years of post-secondary to teach a third grade how to add and subtract.

By the way, they don't have two degrees. They have one degree and a teaching certificate.

As for whether I would want to teach, that's irrelevant. Plenty of people want to teach. In fact, in my experience, it's the fallback position of just about everyone who doesn't have a clue what they want to do in life, other than make good money.

Your suggestion that the oversupply of teachers means they should get more money when they eventually get a job is, quite simply, preposterous. We don't pay rewards to people who make poor career selections. In fact, if the Ontario government was even slightly competent, and less in the thrall of the teachers unions, it would have cut back on the number of students being permitted into teaching colleges years ago. Yet we continue to graduate far more teachers every year than Ontario can possibly accommodate. McGuinty even allowed them to teach junior kindergarten (at enormous expense) instead of using early childhood educators, as a sop to the unions, and in hopes of soaking up some of that excess for a year or so.

[Argus]

$92,000 for a job that requires 3 university degrees is not outlandish now that I think about it.

"Woohoo! Hey, Phyllis, I got my third degree! Now I can teach potty to junior kindergarten!"

Duh

[cybercoma]

First, Ontario teachers made more than teachers from any nation on the list provided on that cite. Second, if we decide that, say, janitors must have four degrees to do their job, should they get $100k a year? Because clearly, with the exception of certain specialist high school classes, few teachers even need one degree. You don't need seven years of post-secondary to teach a third grade how to add and subtract.

By the way, they don't have two degrees. They have one degree and a teaching certificate.

As for whether I would want to teach, that's irrelevant. Plenty of people want to teach. In fact, in my experience, it's the fallback position of just about everyone who doesn't have a clue what they want to do in life, other than make good money.

Your suggestion that the oversupply of teachers means they should get more money when they eventually get a job is, quite simply, preposterous. We don't pay rewards to people who make poor career selections. In fact, if the Ontario government was even slightly competent, and less in the thrall of the teachers unions, it would have cut back on the number of students being permitted into teaching colleges years ago. Yet we continue to graduate far more teachers every year than Ontario can possibly accommodate. McGuinty even allowed them to teach junior kindergarten (at enormous expense) instead of using early childhood educators, as a sop to the unions, and in hopes of soaking up some of that excess for a year or so.

I'm sorry, did you miss the part about tiers?

Teachers don't make $92,000 per year. The select few teachers that have 3 university degrees make $92,000 per year and most of them go on to have positions at the board or become principals or some other administration position.

Seriously, do you know how few people actually have 3 university degrees?

Your indignation is preposterous.

[gunrutz]

I'm sorry, did you miss the part about tiers?

Teachers don't make $92,000 per year. The select few teachers that have 3 university degrees make $92,000 per year and most of them go on to have positions at the board or become principals or some other administration position.

Seriously, do you know how few people actually have 3 university degrees?

Your indignation is preposterous.

Yea, the average salary of $83,000 with holidays and the summers off is obscenely low.

[cybercoma]

Yea, the average salary of $83,000 with holidays and the summers off is obscenely low.

Go do it then.

[Zeus]

I don't think 83000 $ a year is enough to put gaz in their 40000$ boat. I think teacher deserve more money. NOT. Lol

To all the teachers out there go cry somewhere else. POOR babies my heart is broken that you make 83000 $ a year

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I don't think 83000 $ a year is enough to put gaz in their 40000$ boat. I think teacher deserve more money. NOT. Lol

To all the teachers out there go cry somewhere else. POOR babies my heart is broken that you make 83000 $ a year

Teacher's aren't asking for more money.

They are asking to not have as much taken away.

[bleeding heart]

in the restaurant business it's common to keep staff short of the required number of hours that would qualify them as full time employees to avoid paying benefits...

Walmart has a huge, huge number of employees who are "officially" part-time...but who work full time hours.

Thus benefits are neatly avoided.

[cybercoma]

Walmart has a huge, huge number of employees who are "officially" part-time...but who work full time hours.

Thus benefits are neatly avoided.

So does Home Depot and practically every other retail establishment on earth. I think in Ontario there's a law about having to give someone fulltime status if they work X number of weeks in a row at fulltime hours. They skirt this issue by giving them X-1 week at 40 hours, then 1 week at 36. Then X-1 weeks at 40 hours again.

[madmax]

So does Home Depot and practically every other retail establishment on earth. I think in Ontario there's a law about having to give someone fulltime status if they work X number of weeks in a row at fulltime hours. They skirt this issue by giving them X-1 week at 40 hours, then 1 week at 36. Then X-1 weeks at 40 hours again.

and virtually thousands upon thousands of companies who use temp agencies to provide full time work year round , year after year with no benefits and very low pay while gouging the wage of the employee.

Considering there are over 14,000 temp agency brands and likely a few hundred thousand temp agency offices,

using the "Elect to Work" provisions of the labour code makes Wall Mart and Home Depot look like good corporate citizens in comparison

[bleeding heart]

So does Home Depot and practically every other retail establishment on earth. I think in Ontario there's a law about having to give someone fulltime status if they work X number of weeks in a row at fulltime hours. They skirt this issue by giving them X-1 week at 40 hours, then 1 week at 36. Then X-1 weeks at 40 hours again.

Yeesh. Pretty greasy.

[cybercoma]

and virtually thousands upon thousands of companies who use temp agencies to provide full time work year round , year after year with no benefits and very low pay while gouging the wage of the employee.

Considering there are over 14,000 temp agency brands and likely a few hundred thousand temp agency offices,

using the "Elect to Work" provisions of the labour code makes Wall Mart and Home Depot look like good corporate citizens in comparison

Not just temp agencies, but companies contracting out work. People had good-paying jobs with benefits at universities, schools, and hospitals, putting in an honest 40 hour work week scrubbing floors, emptying garbage, and washing the toilets. Very few people want to do this kind of work, let alone as a fulltime job. They were well compensated for this and paid by the universities, schools, and hospitals themselves. Now they hire third-party companies to do the work. Those companies pay their employees minimum wage and give them little to no benefits. 20 years ago you would see middle-aged men holding these jobs, just trying to provide for their families. Today it's immigrants that hardly speak english and elderly women looking to supplement their income mostly. It's the disenfranchised that don't have the representation to fight for themselves that are being exploited, so those higher on the food chain can live in luxury. The exploited don't realize the power they hold because the fear of the reserve of unemployed workers, who have nothing, taking their jobs keeps them silently subjugated.

Edited September 9, 2012 by cybercoma

[madmax]

Not just temp agencies, but companies contracting out work. People had good-paying jobs with benefits at universities, schools, and hospitals, putting in an honest 40 hour work week scrubbing floors, emptying garbage, and washing the toilets. Very few people want to do this kind of work, let alone as a fulltime job. They were well compensated for this and paid by the universities, schools, and hospitals themselves. Now they hire third-party companies to do the work. Those companies pay their employees minimum wage and give them little to no benefits. 20 years ago you would see middle-aged men holding these jobs, just trying to provide for their families. Today it's immigrants that hardly speak english and elderly women looking to supplement their income mostly. It's the disenfranchised that don't have the representation to fight for themselves that are being exploited, so those higher on the food chain can live in luxury. The exploited don't realize the power they hold because the fear of the reserve of unemployed workers, who have nothing, taking their jobs keeps them silently subjugated.

I follow your story.. and will add....

Temp Agencies are contract "Elect to Work" employers. They are often in control of the labour supply for the companies that have subcontracted the work within those establishments above.

Mind you, I will never forget the snear and comment a teacher once made in the 80s about the "overpaid" janitor within the highschool.

Sentiments swing back and forth overtime.

But I believe that the exploitation of the working poor has been on a steady rise.

[TheNewTeddy]

"Elect to Work" means "Elect to be Fired"

[cybercoma]

I will never forget the snear and comment a teacher once made in the 80s about the "overpaid" janitor within the highschool.

To those people I say, go do that job then. If it's so overpaid, why not go do it? The point is that that teacher would never lower him/herself to cleaning toilets and there are many that wouldn't because they believe they don't have to. Yet they'll complain about how much money the janitor makes. It's disgusting.

[madmax]

"Elect to Work" means "Elect to be Fired"

ELect to Work,

Means that you voluntarily sign a contract to work under a separate provision of the Employment Standards Act.

People do not realize when they sign these contracts that they now have less rights then a part time employee at Tim Hortons.

Thus someone who signs a 13 page temp contract through an Agency have allowed for such things as wage deductions for collecting your pay. Yes, you read that correct.

Imagine a Teacher having a deduction off their pay to account for the direct deposit.

Imagine a $2 fee to the Agency because you wanted to receive your pay.

Also recently such things as being sent to a job just over an hour away to discover when you get there for your 11pm shift, the agency has sent or called 40 people in hopes 25 will show up. 15 arbitrarily are sent home, there has been no minimum hours received or paid for such inconvience. I do know some agencies might cover it, it depends on how they feel that day.

I have heard of Agencies charging for the bus/van/car lift to said job, even if the job position is cancelled on arrival.

And the strangest part about it, people will put up with alot hoping to land a good job and not tick off the Agency which holds the employment to many many companies in a location.

THus you could walk away from an Agency but in effect you are walking away from a potential 100 companies that they may have a contract with in a city or region.

Edited September 10, 2012 by madmax

[socialist]

as i am back in university completing my final year for my education degree, i can't help but feel sympathy for ontario's teachers who are being backstabbed by the current liberal government. i realize that the only party in ontario that understands teachers is the ndp and teachers and unions need to do what they can to get this province back on track with an ndp majority.

i am glad that teachers will not just sit and take this garbage. action is necessary.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/teachers-unions-vow-action-after-ontario-bill-passed/article4536303/

[gunrutz]

Go do it then.

Thanks but I already have a job, and not doing that for a living doesn't mean i can't make judgements about the value of that work. Aside from that did you learn that level of argument on the school yard? It's very near the level of Im rubber you're glue, or i know you are what am I.

[gunrutz]

Not just temp agencies, but companies contracting out work. People had good-paying jobs with benefits at universities, schools, and hospitals, putting in an honest 40 hour work week scrubbing floors, emptying garbage, and washing the toilets. Very few people want to do this kind of work, let alone as a fulltime job. They were well compensated for this and paid by the universities, schools, and hospitals themselves. Now they hire third-party companies to do the work. Those companies pay their employees minimum wage and give them little to no benefits. 20 years ago you would see middle-aged men holding these jobs, just trying to provide for their families. Today it's immigrants that hardly speak english and elderly women looking to supplement their income mostly. It's the disenfranchised that don't have the representation to fight for themselves that are being exploited, so those higher on the food chain can live in luxury. The exploited don't realize the power they hold because the fear of the reserve of unemployed workers, who have nothing, taking their jobs keeps them silently subjugated.

It's amusing to watch you dance around every subject while not actually admitting the underlying ideals that you subscribe to, but every once in a while...When I read you're post i see an occupy protestor, a student protestor, people pretending they are fighting about an issue when in reality they want to tear down the whole system, you know the one that makes this one of the very best places in the world. But you could do it better, you know the right way, extremists always do.