Deficit Continues to Shrink

punked · July 31, 2012

The nice thing about corporations, especially in a competitive environment, is that long term incompetence is unsustainable. Privately, it most certainly is and we see it regularly.

Good thing we have an competitive environment. For the last 15 years I have had the choice of 4 types of milk (but I gotta buy milk), there are 5 different gas distributer, I get the choice of 2 Internet companies, 3 cell phone companies. Hate to break this to you Canada is not a place where competition is encouraged.

Wild Bill · July 31, 2012

Good thing we have an competitive environment. For the last 15 years I have had the choice of 4 types of milk (but I gotta buy milk), there are 5 different gas distributer, I get the choice of 2 Internet companies, 3 cell phone companies. Hate to break this to you Canada is not a place where competition is encouraged.

I agree, punked. We have always allowed companies in Canada to get away with a protected market. The worst example is the insurance companies. They tell the government that the big bully companies from the States would wipe them out and the government caves.

The government of course feels the need to protect its citizens, of course. So it tells the insurance companies that in return for protection they must get approval for any rate increases. Who approves? The government, of course!

And thus we all get stiffed, particularly here in Ontario! The problem is that governments have no idea of how insurance companies should be run, or any other company, for that matter. The insurance underwriters tell the government they need a 10% increase. The government gives them 6%. They really needed 2%, perhaps even less in some years.

That 10% asking figure was supposedly based on increased costs. Governments have no way of telling what cost increases are true and necessary. They cannot tell if insurance companies are inefficient and have room for cost savings. Government and efficiency are mutually contradictory at the best of times.

As I have said before, my career involved the introduction of computers. I was always amazed at how certain organizations were able to dodge adopting the efficient use of computer power. The public sector was and is the worst. Many school principals still have secretaries, since they can't even open their own emails. I stood in front of a nurse at a hospital emergency and watched her put a form over my health card and rub it with a pencil to get a tracing on the form. Hell, I bought my cat's food with an ATM card! When my young daughter broke her wrist playing in the driveway, the doctor at emergency was bubbling over about their new system that would allow xrays to be scanned into their house computer system. I had been doing the same thing with business documents FIFTEEN YEARS earlier!

Insurance companies have no need to be current with computer technology. They DO have good systems for the accountants to count their money but they are still primitive with work station power for frontline troopers to do their jobs. Why bother? Just apply to the government for a rate increase and after a bit of a negotiating show over how much they will get one.

They have the best of both worlds. They are ostensibly a private business with public sector protection from the need to constantly modernize to compete in their market.

I say that Canada is a much larger market today. Open up the doors and let all those competing companies in!

I'm tired of getting stiffed!

Moonbox · July 31, 2012

Good thing we have an competitive environment. For the last 15 years I have had the choice of 4 types of milk (but I gotta buy milk), there are 5 different gas distributer, I get the choice of 2 Internet companies, 3 cell phone companies. Hate to break this to you Canada is not a place where competition is encouraged.

punked that's a whole other problem altogether. Protecting private industries from competition while at the same time allowing them to rip off consumers (like our telecoms) is one of the worst possible ways of doing things.

Rick · July 31, 2012

Ya the Canadian economy is just chugging along... :rolleyes:

OTTAWA - Canada's economy nudged forward a disappointing 0.1 per cent in May, falling well back of analyst expectations for a robust advance prior to the anticipated summer slowdown.
May's number released Tuesday left April's 0.3 per cent expansion as the only stellar month for the economy so far this year.

Economists had expected a more robust showing of 0.2 per cent, and some even 0.3 per cent, given previous indicators that suggested retail sales, manufacturing and wholesale trade would all contribute to growth.

Retail sales did perform strongly, rising 0.7 per cent after a slightly larger decline in April, while wholesale trade edged up 0.1 per cent, the sixth consecutive advance.

But manufacturing fell by 0.5 per cent, mainly as a result of lower production of machinery, computer and electronic products and primary metals. Construction was also down, by 0.2 per cent, a further sign of the slowdown in the residential housing market.

As well, transportation and warehousing services declined 0.5 per cent, although that was largely attributed to a decline in rail services due to the late May strike at Canadian Pacific Railway.

"All told, this sets the second quarter on track for no better than two per cent growth, and will lead to downward revisions in the consensus for the (second) quarter," said Avery Shenfeld, chief economist with CIBC World Markets.

punked · July 31, 2012

Ya the Canadian economy is just chugging along...

And now we know who and what saved Canada economy in the first place. The opposition.

Rick · July 31, 2012

And now we know who and what saved Canada economy in the first place. The opposition.

I'd hate to think where we'd be today if not for them...

Given that those two economic idiots, Harper and Flaherty couldn't see the the looming recession that everyone else knew was already happening.

Dumb AND dumber those two...

cybercoma · July 31, 2012

Then cut the social services that Canadians are relying on to make it through the economic downturn. And I don't just mean working-class Canadians, but businesses that would be paid by those Canadians trying to stay afloat.

Shady · July 31, 2012

Maybe we should ALL just stop paying taxes, eh? We can be just like Greece.

Awesome strawman. Nobody here has suggested that.

Shady · July 31, 2012

And now we know who and what saved Canada economy in the first place. The opposition.

Canada's strong economic fundamentals is what saved the Cansdian economy. Not the clueless opposition.

punked · July 31, 2012

Awesome strawman. Nobody here has suggested that.

He is point out every time you say "WE ARE BECOMING THE GREEKS" you are wrong because most of Greece's problems came from no one paying taxes and Conservative governments cooking the books to get in the Euro. He is pointing out you are using Greece as an example with out knowing anything about how their problems arose in the first place. Borrowing money only because their problem because of all the other problems they had that banks and other lenders ignored in the first place.

punked · July 31, 2012

Canada's strong economic fundamentals is what saved the Cansdian economy. Not the clueless opposition.

Yep keep telling yourself that. We had a strong opposition that didn't let the Cons do what they wanted and Canada did well out preformed all other G-7 nations. Now we have just a Conservative government we shall see how they do on their own. You get to own what happens from here on out.

cybercoma · July 31, 2012

Awesome strawman. Nobody here has suggested that.

It wasn't a strawman. It was hyperbole and sarcasm.

Moonbox · July 31, 2012

Yep keep telling yourself that. We had a strong opposition that didn't let the Cons do what they wanted and Canada did well out preformed all other G-7 nations. Now we have just a Conservative government we shall see how they do on their own. You get to own what happens from here on out.

punked you obviously don't have a sweet f'n clue what saved us during the recession. That strong opposition you're referring to was about as neutered as an opposition can be. The Liberals were so paralyzed by fear and the NDP too small to be relevant. The only thing that saved us from a banking collapse was Chretien and Martin's resistance to financial mergers and deregulation in the 1990's. The Conservatives certainly can't take credit for that, but neither can the practically non-existant opposition, who the Conservatives pretty much had their way with prior to the last election.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Moonbox

punked · July 31, 2012

punked you obviously don't have a sweet f'n clue what saved us during the recession. That strong opposition you're referring to was about as neutered as an opposition can be. The Liberals were so paralyzed by fear and the NDP too small to be relevant. The only thing that saved us from a banking collapse was Chretien and Martin's resistance to financial mergers and deregulation in the 1990's. The Conservatives certainly can't take credit for that, but neither can the practically non-existant opposition, who the Conservatives pretty much had their way with prior to the last election.

What saved us from complete employment collapse was a strong stimulus and auto bail out. What saved us from complete economic collapse was a banking sector that was not over leveraged. Those are two different things, but try as you might as the world was falling all around us you can't pretend demand didn't also fall.

CPCFTW · July 31, 2012

And now we know who and what saved Canada economy in the first place. The opposition.

Watching lefties draw conclusions about the Canadian economy based on 1 mo GDP growth numbers is hysterical. You can't make this stuff up! :lol:

It's also not surprising that gdp growth slows when the government is cutting.. But that doesn't make it bad. Gdp growth generated by the private sector is what really matters in the long term.

punked · July 31, 2012

Watching lefties draw conclusions about the Canadian economy based on 1 mo GDP growth numbers is hysterical. You can't make this stuff up!

It's also not surprising that gdp growth slows when the government is cutting.. But that doesn't make it bad. Gdp growth generated by the private sector is what really matters in the long term.

Nope what matters long term is employment and GDP to deficit ratio. If we can have the same GDP to deficit ratio with full employment or the same thing with 7-8% unemployment I will take having Canadians work. I am not saying those are the choices but your over oversimplification is as bad as anyone elses in this thread.

Moonbox · July 31, 2012

What saved us from complete employment collapse was a strong stimulus and auto bail out. What saved us from complete economic collapse was a banking sector that was not over leveraged. Those are two different things, but try as you might as the world was falling all around us you can't pretend demand didn't also fall.

The financial collapse snowballed into a system-wide recession. One was the catalyst for the other and continued to drag the entire economy down with it. The auto bailout was necessary and was Obama's baby. Canada merely followed suit and even the Marijuana Party would have followed Obama's lead there. As for the stimulus spending, most of the spending was on infrastructure and the recovery in Canada started before shovels were even in the ground for a lot of the projects.

The mere suggestion that our heroic Opposition saved us from economic collapse, however, is pretty rich. I'm not saying that Harper/Flaherty did either either. Paul Martin's conservatism and insistance on financial regulation saved us from European/American style recession. A monkey could have been steering the ship in 2008 and we would have come out about as well as we did.

punked · July 31, 2012

The financial collapse snowballed into a system-wide recession. One was the catalyst for the other and continued to drag the entire economy down with it. The auto bailout was necessary and was Obama's baby. Canada merely followed suit and even the Marijuana Party would have followed Obama's lead there. As for the stimulus spending, most of the spending was on infrastructure and the recovery in Canada started before shovels were even in the ground for a lot of the projects.

The mere suggestion that our heroic Opposition saved us from economic collapse, however, is pretty rich. I'm not saying that Harper/Flaherty did either either. Paul Martin's conservatism and insistance on financial regulation saved us from European/American style recession. A monkey could have been steering the ship in 2008 and we would have come out about as well as we did.

Not according to your CONSERVATIVE government. In fact their own prediction with out stimulus leads to much higher unemployment. In fact they estimate that the stimulus created or saved 248,000 Canadian jobs, or about 60% of jobs lost due to the Economic crisis.

Edited July 31, 2012 by punked

WWWTT · July 31, 2012

A lot of the time, however, this is not due to any inefficiencies in the private model vs the public model, but rather due to the fact that the corporation isn't going to endlessly underwrite huge losses year after year, like Ontario Hydro did. 7-10% of your energy bill here is spent paying back the debt the public company accumulated over 14 years ago prior to privitization....

I agree 100%!

Unfortunately Ontario was a publicly owned utility provider and not just any ordinary corporation.

The cost of hydro and the supply of hydro itself has a direct impact on every ones available income,standard of living and a tremendous impact on attracting/maintaining business/manufacturing.

In Mike Harris's frantic attempt to look for spending cuts to offset decreased revenue due to tax cuts,he sacrificed a crown jewel of Ontario industrialization.

WWWTT

WWWTT · July 31, 2012

I'm tired of getting stiffed!

NDP MPP Jagmeet Singh is making some great proposals to bring in public insurance.

But insurance is a provincially regulated industry and should be debated under the provincial heading.

WWWTT

WWWTT · July 31, 2012

Gdp growth generated by the private sector is what really matters in the long term.

This is a false statement.

GDP is mainly generated by consumers and consumer confidence.

WWWTT

Bonam · July 31, 2012

This is a false statement.

GDP is mainly generated by consumers and consumer confidence.

And what do you think they are consuming? The goods and services produced by the private sector.

Moonbox · July 31, 2012

Not according to your CONSERVATIVE government. In fact their own prediction with out stimulus leads to much higher unemployment. In fact they estimate that the stimulus created or saved 248,000 Canadian jobs, or about 60% of jobs lost due to the Economic crisis.

Wait...MY Conservative government? I have no love for Harper or the Conservatives and have very little faith in them. You'll notice the only praise I've offered in this thread has been for Paul Martin (a Liberal). Right now, however, I'm more confident in the Conservatives than our goofball opposition, which is sad.

At any rate, the estimates for stimulus results are less than accurate. In fact, they're completely unreliable. Take the US for example. The economists predicted a certain number of jobs would be lost without stimulus, and what unemployment would look like WITH stimulus. As it turns out, unemployment WITH stimulus ended up being far higher than their original predictions WITHOUT stimulus. With no baseline number to work with, it's next to impossible to estimate how many jobs were created by all that money. Certainly some, but the numbers are wild guesses. As far as we or the economists know, the stimulus could have been a huge waste or a huge success. At least with infrastructure spending, however, we know that this money would have had to be spent at SOME point. Spending it during a recession is better optics though.

Moonbox · July 31, 2012

This is a false statement.

GDP is mainly generated by consumers and consumer confidence.

WWWTT

lol. You have no clue what GDP is.

punked · July 31, 2012

Wait...MY Conservative government? I have no love for Harper or the Conservatives and have very little faith in them. You'll notice the only praise I've offered in this thread has been for Paul Martin (a Liberal). Right now, however, I'm more confident in the Conservatives than our goofball opposition, which is sad.

At any rate, the estimates for stimulus results are less than accurate. In fact, they're completely unreliable. Take the US for example. The economists predicted a certain number of jobs would be lost without stimulus, and what unemployment would look like WITH stimulus. As it turns out, unemployment WITH stimulus ended up being far higher than their original predictions WITHOUT stimulus. With no baseline number to work with, it's next to impossible to estimate how many jobs were created by all that money. Certainly some, but the numbers are wild guesses. As far as we or the economists know, the stimulus could have been a huge waste or a huge success. At least with infrastructure spending, however, we know that this money would have had to be spent at SOME point. Spending it during a recession is better optics though.

Yep economist in the US made predictions based on a 2 Trillion dollar stimulus. They saw a 800 Billion dollar one, gee I wonder why those numbers never matched up? You don't get to cut the knees out from under the stimulus then declare it a failure.

Edited July 31, 2012 by punked