Congressman: American schools should be modeled after madrassas

[cybercoma]

There is no comparison in Canada. Harper isn't Heydrich no matter what some claim.

Harper isn't an extremist by any means anyway, contrary to the rhetoric of the far left. He's a pragmatist that will do despicable things to retain power and control. The biggest threat to Harper is losing authority.

[kraychik]

I have to agree with cybercoma (gasp) re: Nazis being 'Right Wing'...no matter the 'Socialism' in Nazi. Their very marching songs, like Horst Wessel, mention fighting the Communists in the streets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied

That's a superficial distinction. In a more comprehensive analysis, Nazism is a leftist ideology. When we examine the ideology of the left, which can be summarized as collectivism (the perceived "greater good") trumping individualism, and then examine the Nazi platform and its policies, Nazism is revealed to be a leftist ideology.

The argument advanced from cybercoma that Nazism cannot possibly be a a leftist ideology because it attacked communists politically and through violence is nonsense. It's like saying Sunni Islamists can't possibly be Islamists because they fight with Shia Islamists. Or Baathism as practised by Saddam Hussein can't be a leftist ideology because it was at war with the leftist Islamists in Iran. Both Baathism and Islamism are leftist/socialist/statist ideologies. Just because they fight with one another doesn't mean they don't belong to same ideological family. Many similarly-minded states and movements have fought with one another. Was Trotsky not a communist because he had a conflict with Stalin?

It's simple, an honest analysis of Nazism reveals it to be statist (leftist) at its core, with the primary difference between Nazism and communism is the former's national and racist focus and communism's internationalism. This is of course contrary to the common "wisdom" (which is leftist historical revisionism) that Nazism composes the "far-right".

[Canuckistani]

I think the term you're looking for is fascim. You could look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[kraychik]

I never made any left-right claim about the Nazis.

I did, and I'll do it again: Nazism is a leftist ideology.

What I was pointing out is your assertion that Hitler implemented Marxism is entirely wrong.

I never said he did, I said that Nazism belongs to the same family of leftist ideologies, who all borrow on Marxist themes of eternal struggles between various groups. Pure Marxism is of course obsessed with the imaginary class struggle (the narrative that you subscribe to as a socialist), while Nazism has elements of that attached to a racial struggle between Aryans and Jews, and other races perceived as inferior and dangerous to Aryan longevity.

He murdered Communists and outlawed their party. As you sit here and switch between "Marxist implementer" and "leftist ideology," you continue to show your bias. You acknowledge variation on the left in one breath, then turn around and blur it all together. Either you're well aware of the differences and are lacking intellectual integrity, or you're nothing more than a partisan blowhard that wants to just post blanket criticisms of everything to the left of your far-right position.

There's a lot of overlap between all of these leftist ideologies, and I've explained that they all share a common denominator of centralized control. It's an uncomfortable truth for you as a socialist, I understand that.

I have absolutely no tolerance for Communism. It's a threat to peace and security. I'm a social democrat. Again, while you acknowledge that there is variation on the Left, you seem to be completely lost when it comes to distinguishing between liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, socialists, and communists.

So, there are differences between various leftist ideologies? Thank you for the revelation. I was talking about the commonalities, not the nuances separating "social democrats" (socialists) from "democratic socialists" (socialists).

Moreover, you're suffering from the effect of having an extreme position; therefore, you believe all moderate positions are extreme because they're so far away from your stance. You quite simply cannot see that you are the outlier. For that reason, it's quite clear that any conversation with you will be fruitless. You're going to run around the forum spouting dogma and buzzwords, while broad-brushing everyone that doesn't fit within your narrow political perspective.

What is extreme about my position? I'm simply articulating the reasons why the narrative of Nazism being a "far-right" ideology is a complete lie, and it is perpetuated intentionally to smear the right and absolve the left of its association with Nazism. It's simple, really. The contemporary right is antithetical to Nazism at its core, given its placement of the sovereignty of the individual as the paramount value. The contemporary left sees things in the opposite light, in both the social and economic dimensions.

You're as much a caricature of the Right as socialist is a caricature of the Left here. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if both of you were the same person running with polar-opposite gimmicks.

Ok.

[kraychik]

I think the term you're looking for is fascim. You could look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism is also a leftist ideology, contrary to the prevailing lie of it being a "far-right" ideology.

[dre]

Fascism is also a leftist ideology.

Oh jesus... :lol:

[DogOnPorch]

The only way the Nazis could be called leftists or socialists is if you wrapped the Political Spectrum and met Stalinism coming from the other way. Nazism is closer to Oligarchy than most anything else.

[kraychik]

The only way the Nazis could be called leftists or socialists is if you wrapped the Political Spectrum and met Stalinism coming from the other way. Nazism is closer to Oligarchy than most anything else.

Like I said, Nazism is about statism, which overlaps greatly with leftism (the collective over the individual), while conversely being antithetical to the values of the contemporary right-wing.

[dre]

The only way the Nazis could be called leftists or socialists is if you wrapped the Political Spectrum and met Stalinism coming from the other way. Nazism is closer to Oligarchy than most anything else.

Well the funny thing about his statement is that he obviously hasnt even spent 30 seconds reading about the history of fascism. Left wing groups provided the vast majority of resistance against fasism in nearly every country, while many right wing and nationalist groups allied themselves with the fascists.

In almost every country where fascism had a strong presense it was opposed by both national communist parties, socialist parties, anarchists and other anti-nationalists, and labor parties. In almost every country these groups provided the bulk of the opposition (both political and military). This was true in Spain, Sweden the UK, Italy and Germany as well. Members and supporters of the German Communist Party and Social Democrat party formed the Rotfrontkämpferbund which fought the rist of Naziism and fought pitch battles in the streets with the Sturmabteilung in the 20's and 30's.

Politically the fascists were hard core right wing nationalists.... Economically they detested both communism AND capitalism and branded themselves as a "third way", or an alternative to both.

Like I said, Nazism is about statism, which overlaps greatly with leftism (the collective over the individual), while conversely being antithetical to the values of the contemporary right-wing.

Youre confusing statism with authoritarian nationalism, which isnt suprising due to the elementary school level understanding you seem to have of political ideology, the difference between authoritarianism and libertarian, and the fact both of these occupy both the left and right sides of the political spectrum.

Edited July 9, 2012 by dre

[cybercoma]

The argument advanced from cybercoma that Nazism cannot possibly be a a leftist ideology because it attacked communists politically and through violence is nonsense.

What's nonsense is your insistence on attributing things to me that I did not say. I responded specifically to your comment that Hitler was an implementer of Marxism by saying that Hitler crushed Communists. I made no claims about the Left-Right spectrum in terms of Nazism.

[kraychik]

What's nonsense is your insistence on attributing things to me that I did not say. I responded specifically to your comment that Hitler was an implementer of Marxism by saying that Hitler crushed Communists. I made no claims about the Left-Right spectrum in terms of Nazism.

You said this:

Seriously, Hitler implemented Marxism??

I never said that Hitler implemented Marxism. What I stated was that Karl Marx is the ideological father of leftist movements, including Nazism. Nazism borrows greatly from Marxism. Identifying overlap isn't the same thing as stating that Marxism and Nazism are one in the same. All I stated, which is entirely accurate, is that they share much in common and both belong to the leftist family of ideologies. What you're doing, essentially, is erecting a strawman. You're asserting that I said something (which i didn't) and then proceeding to hack away at it.

Here is your next sentence, which is clearly your attempt to attack your strawman argument:

You know Hitler was up against the Communists in Germany, right? Not just up against them, he was violently opposed to them.

Again, I never said that Nazism is the equivalent of communism, but that both ideologies belong to same family: leftism. I've also explained why this is the case, which discredit the "common knowledge" of Nazism representing the "far-right".

[cybercoma]

I never said that Hitler implemented Marxism.

You said:

the father of your ideology is Karl Marx, and its real-life implementers are ... Hitler [etc].

Is the ideology of Marx not Marxism? Also, I hope you're aware that Marx absolutely despised socialists, since I'm sure you'll try to claim that Marx is the father of everything on the Left. He saw them as a bigger threat to society than capitalism.

Edited July 10, 2012 by cybercoma

[Shady]

Well the funny thing about his statement is that he obviously hasnt even spent 30 seconds reading about the history of fascism. Left wing groups provided the vast majority of resistance against fasism in nearly every country, while many right wing and nationalist groups allied themselves with the fascists.

The National Socialist Party aka The Nazis' political platform was almost completely leftist.

[kraychik]

Here's what I said:

You want to mock Ayn Rand, while the father of your ideology (socialism is Karl Marx, and its real-life implementers are Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Guevara, Mao, Hitler, and Kim Il-Sung. Your slander doesn't work so well when the tables are turned.

Karl Marx, whether you want to believe it or not, is the intellectual father of contemporary socialism. While today's socialists typically don't openly call for a complete abolition of private property, their false narrative of an inherent class struggle is directly sourced to Marxism. The anti-business and anti-freedom agenda of contemporary socialism has many parallels with Marxism. The parallels between socialism and communism are numerous, and they include support for governmental control either through direct ownership or massive regulation and taxation) of education, healthcare, primary resources, telecommunications (which includes restrictions on freedom of speech and expression), media, and many other sectors and industries. I don't want to go too far off on this tangent, but my point is simple and clear, and absolutely correct: Nazism belongs to the family of leftist ideologies, and the family of leftist ideologies draws heavily from the demented political and historical narratives of Karl Marx.

Is the ideology of Marx not Marxism? Also, I hope you're aware that Marx absolutely despised socialists, since I'm sure you'll try to claim that Marx is the father of everything on the Left. He saw them as a bigger threat to society than capitalism.

Like I said earlier, conflict between various factions of leftism doesn't mean that these various factions aren't unified with common ideological denominators. So Karl Marx\s despising of socialists, or Hitler's propaganda and war against the communists (who he viewed as agents of the global Jewish conspiracy to destroy the world, he regularly described the Soviet Union as Judeo-Bolshevism, a meme parroted by contemporary Neo-Nazis today), or any other conflicts between various leftist factions is not an argument that disproves the underlying ideological commonalities that unify these various iterations of leftism. All of them believe in collectivisation at the expense of individualism, all are statists, and this mentality is a staple of the contemporary left.

[cybercoma]

Christ. Pick up a history book. Socialism existed before Marx. He criticized them at length. Am I supposed to take you seriously when you're at once arrogant and ignorant? You say everyone on the left has the same ideological foundations, but then refuse to accept the same on the right (as you should).

Edited July 10, 2012 by cybercoma

[kraychik]

Christ. Pick up a history book. Socialism existed before Marx. He criticized them at length. Am I supposed to take you seriously when you're at once arrogant and ignorant? You say everyone on the left has the same ideological foundations, but then refuse to accept the same on the right (as you should).

Who are the founders of the contemporary right's ideology? John Locke? Adam Smith? Looks like we're in much better company. We emphasize freedom of the individual, and you emphasize the opposite.

[dre]

The National Socialist Party aka The Nazis' political platform was almost completely leftist.

:lol:

[Moonlight Graham]

Like I said, Nazism is about statism, which overlaps greatly with leftism (the collective over the individual), while conversely being antithetical to the values of the contemporary right-wing.

You're saying statism is automatically a left-wing feature? Are all authoritarian/totalitarian governments that control citizens socially and economically left-wing? I think not. If Stephen Harper made himself King of Canada and forced a socially conservative agenda down our throats, would that make him left-wing? Individualism vs collectivism doesn't define left vs right philosophy.

Naziism is a complex system that incorporates both left-wing and right-wing elements. Much like various forms of Anarchism, which can be collectivist on one had yet anti-state on the other. One could argue that Naziism is right-wing because it's anti-egalitarian. Leftists are often egalitarians, they push equality for all, while Naziism is the antithesis of this, they promote social darwinism, racism, they kill disabled people & other undesirables. Naziism is also hyper-nationalist, and nationalism is also commonly a feature of the right. There are other elements that could be described as leftwing.

What you're basically trying to do is illegitimate the left by pinning Naziism to the left. You're not interested in any kind of rational debate on whether Naziism is left or right-wing based on its characteristics. You don't want Naziism associated with the right and will argue against it being such primarily to further legitimize your own ideology & illegitimate the leftists you dislike. Thus, this debate is DOA.

[dre]

I never said that Hitler implemented Marxism. What I stated was that Karl Marx is the ideological father of leftist movements, including Nazism.

The problem of course is this is all complete horse shit, and if you even spent 15 minutes doing any honest reading about it you would know that.

The Nazi party was a party of authoritarian right wing nationalists, and left wingers in Germany vehemently opposed them. BOth the German communist party, and germanies social democrats not only opposed them politically but fought them on the streets of Germany.

You can ignore this all you want but its simply true and this isnt even remotely contraversial.

[cybercoma]

Who are the founders of the contemporary right's ideology? John Locke? Adam Smith? Looks like we're in much better company. We emphasize freedom of the individual, and you emphasize the opposite.

Funny how they're called liberals, eh?

[cybercoma]

You don't want Naziism associated with the right and will argue against it being such primarily to further legitimize your own ideology & illegitimate the leftists you dislike. Thus, this debate is DOA.

Besides, it's completely off topic. Why the hell are we discussing political philosophy in the US politics forum in a thread about Louisiana schools? I'll tell you why. Because this character is a troll and the moderators no longer moderate.

[dre]

Besides, it's completely off topic. Why the hell are we discussing political philosophy in the US politics forum in a thread about Louisiana schools? I'll tell you why. Because this character is a troll and the moderators no longer moderate.

I dont think he IS a troll. HE ACTUALLY BELIEVES THIS STUFF

[kraychik]

Funny how they're called liberals, eh?

Classical liberalism has nothing to do with the contemporary left. I am using the term leftism in the contemporary pop-culture sense, not in the academic sense. If we are to use academic and classical definitions of liberalism compared to the term as it is used today in common discourse, we will see that they are virtually opposites of one another.

[kraychik]

The problem of course is this is all complete horse shit, and if you even spent 15 minutes doing any honest reading about it you would know that.

The Nazi party was a party of authoritarian right wing nationalists, and left wingers in Germany vehemently opposed them. BOth the German communist party, and germanies social democrats not only opposed them politically but fought them on the streets of Germany.

You can ignore this all you want but its simply true and this isnt even remotely contraversial.

I've already addressed this nonsense argument. Conflicts between various leftist groups does not contradict my statement that they belong to the same ideological family of the left.

[kraychik]

You're saying statism is automatically a left-wing feature? Are all authoritarian/totalitarian governments that control citizens socially and economically left-wing?

Yes. This is virtually without exception. I've already explained this. Such a system can only be supported by those that support the supremacy of the collective over the sovereignty of the individual. This is exclusively leftist in origin, considering the primary philosophical divide between today's right and today's left is this very issue.

I think not. If Stephen Harper made himself King of Canada and forced a socially conservative agenda down our throats, would that make him left-wing? Individualism vs collectivism doesn't define left vs right philosophy.

Individualism vs. statism is the primary bone of contention between the right and the left.

What you're basically trying to do is illegitimate the left by pinning Naziism to the left.

No, I'm just charatcerizing Nazism as what it is: a leftist ideology. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited July 10, 2012 by kraychik