human rights watch report on syria and the state department

[bleeding heart]

OK...just keep that thought as we approach the 40th anniversary of the Munich Olympic Massacre. Jews? Jews? What Jews?

But I'm not saying there's no anti-semitism either. Obviously, it's not even vaguely insinuated in anything I've said.

[bush_cheney2004]

But I'm not saying there's no anti-semitism either. Obviously, it's not even vaguely insinuated in anything I've said.

Fine...no problem...it needn't be that complicated anyway. It's Israel and Palestine on the same fight card for the past 50 years or more, and we know how the fight will continue to be scored. Human rights just become a punchline.

[Guest Peeves]

yes. expanding illegal jewish settlements in the west bank and east jerusalem is all about israel defending itself from real existential threats. kind of like how the nazis had to defend itself from the jews by expanding itself around europe.

Witness the above post for contemplation and please, more than just a cursory knee jerk response for discussions sake. I have a point to attempt to make and ask your indulgence. No flippant response please.

Now my contention is ----- that 99 % of all Jews that WILL discuss Israel on a board concede the difference between Jews , antiSemitism and criticism of Israel/Israelis.

Many Jews will not partake in such discussion.

Why? From what I've experienced on MANY boards,it goes nowhere. It give an anti-Semite a soap box. It offers an opportunity for an anti Semite to avoid attacking Jews by rather attacking Israel all the while denying they are against Jews.

Of course not all that criticize Israel are antiSemites any more that all that criticize American policy are haters of Americans, or, that all that criticize the Islamist terrorist are Islamophobes or hate Muslims.

Over the past years,,,since around the period following 9/11, I personally have found the new trend for rather devout antiSemites that I have encountered on chat rooms and boards have increasingly slanted their criticism of Jews rather in the direction of Israel, because of course that is more acceptable and can be claimed as not 'against' Jews.

Now keeping that in mind, we have the above poster that started a thread pointedly in an accusatory manner at Israel. Even side tracking from a brutal state of Sryia to do so. (Israel is often a safe target.)

Note how it has changed with a given opportunity and some encouragement, to be about Jews and Europe.

"kind of like how the nazis had to defend itself from the jews by expanding itself around Europe."

!!! The Nazis had to invade Europe to defend Germany from the Jews.. A definitive antiSemetic turn of phrase, ya think?

Of course Israel is a fair target as are individual Jews or even parties.."when Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli settler and member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement, opened fire on unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside the Ibrahim Mosque (or Mosque of Abraham) at the Cave of the Patriarchs site in Hebron in the West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of Purim and Ramadan.[1][2] Twenty-nine worshippers were killed and 125 wounded.[3] The attack ended after Goldstein had expended his ammunition, when he was overcome, then beaten to death by survivors.

Jews, Israelis condemned this event and openly any similar, and criticism for injustices are deserving.

Jews/Israelis are among the most vocal of all in criticizing Israel. Read their papers, watch Israeli news.

Back to the post;

But, one might expect by now that some observing readers should see a repeated predilection for hate for Jews when it is displayed as in the sentence above. Like a scorpion, he could do not otherwise.

kind of like how the nazis had to defend itself from the jews by expanding itself around europe.

Indeed!

[bleeding heart]

Jews/Israelis are among the most vocal of all in criticizing Israel. Read their papers, watch Israeli news.

Yes, that's my understanding as well.

And in fact, when Israeli Jews critical of their country come to North America to speak, they report on a baffling inability to do what they routinely do in their own country: criticize the State without being labelled a "self-hating Jew" or similar epithet.

Mind you, Peeves, I'm sympathetic to a point you've made, one I've heard many times: that genuine anti-semites can and no doubt do offer that "I'm just criticizing the country" as a cover for their own bigotry. There's not a doubt in my mind that this happens.

But that doesn't at all alter the fact that criticism of Israel is routinely shouted down as anti-semitic, and that this is done expressly for the purpose of sidelining actual issues in hopes of silencing the critic.

A North American (and to a smaller extent European) phenomenon; not so much an Israeli one.

You're also right that most Jews are perfectly willing to have an honest and constructive debate on the issues, especially if they're not compared to the Nazis, or other absurd associations. Because in fact, it is not, to my knowledge, Jewish people who scream down the critics so much as self-appointed, politically-correct "Defenders of Israel." [sic]

Further, as they consider the matter almost literally sacred, and the doctrinal truths to be never deviated from, there is another issue that arises: as Raul Hilberg and others have intimated, not allowing criticism of Jews, based on some nascent form of what they call "philo-semitism," is itself bigotry towards Jews.

"We must be allowed to be considered cruel, unjust, violent; to deny it can be the case is to deny our humanity. We're not Noble Savages; we're not avatars for an historical guilt which make non-Jews afraid to speak the truth."

In short, if I say the Canadian Natives can do now wrong...I am racist towards them. I don't find this difficult to appreciate.

[Guest American Woman]

Who's not being honest? The Palestinian cause has been most sabotaged by their own actions and failed leadership. Israel is not going away and has every right to defend itself from real "existential" threats, far more immediate than those addressed by Canada killing the locals in Serbia, Afghanistan or Libya.

Exactly.

The terrorists will not be satisfied until Israel is GONE. Israel has every right to exist as a peaceful nation without the threat of Hezbollah, Hamas or anyone else murdering and torturing its people. Israel has every right to fight back against this oppression and if that creates even more terrorists then they deserve to be dealt with in the same manner as the rest of the terrorists.

[bush_cheney2004]

....In short, if I say the Canadian Natives can do now wrong...I am racist towards them. I don't find this difficult to appreciate.

How fair and noble....after the Canadian Natives have been subjugated.

[GostHacked]

How fair and noble....after the Canadian Natives have been subjugated.

And long after the American Indians were subjugated, along with the slave blacks imported from Africa.

[bleeding heart]

How fair and noble....after the Canadian Natives have been subjugated.

What are you on about? I said nothing about "fair" and "noble." lol

Edited July 16, 2012 by bleeding heart

[bud]

Israel is not going away and has every right to defend itself from real "existential" threats, far more immediate than those addressed by Canada killing the locals in Serbia, Afghanistan or Libya.

at one point, slavery was legal and practiced. would anyone be silly enough to accept that it's okay to do now because it was practiced by 'us'?

illegal jewish settlements that continue to expand are NOT a defensive measure. it doesn't matter how much you repeat 'defending itself', it's not going to somehow make israel's land theft, water theft and brutal military operations defensive.

if you want to continue playing the no bullshit cowboy on this forum, then stop using the b.s. line that israel is defending itself and be honest that israel's ultimate goal is greater israel, which includes the land that belongs to the palestinians.

[bush_cheney2004]

at one point, slavery was legal and practiced. would anyone be silly enough to accept that it's okay to do now because it was practiced by 'us'?

Yes...occupation and subjugation is still practiced today...by Canada. Yet you smugly preach to Israel about borders and land rights. Laughable!

illegal jewish settlements that continue to expand are NOT a defensive measure. it doesn't matter how much you repeat 'defending itself', it's not going to somehow make israel's land theft, water theft and brutal military operations defensive.

First Nations want their land and water back too. Gonna give it to them? Hmmmm?

if you want to continue playing the no bullshit cowboy on this forum, then stop using the b.s. line that israel is defending itself and be honest that israel's ultimate goal is greater israel, which includes the land that belongs to the palestinians.

That's fine by me...may the best Semites win. The USA has picked one team, and you have picked the other. Good luck!

[bud]

That's fine by me...may the best Semites win. The USA has picked one team, and you have picked the other. Good luck!

okay. thank you for your honesty. although, my only team is the one who strives for justice and human rights.

how about peeves and american woman? are you also willing to be honest like bc2004 is? do you also agree that israel's acts are not defensive and their major goal is what they've wanted from the very beginning when they chose palestine as the homeland for the jews, which is all of the area, including the designated palestinian land?

Edited July 17, 2012 by bud

[bush_cheney2004]

okay. thank you for your honesty. although, my only team is the one who strives for justice and human rights.

Yes..the one that bombs Iraqis, Serbs, Afghans, and Libyans! Yay human rights!

how about peeves and american woman? are you also willing to be honest like bc2004 is? do you also agree that israel's acts are not defensive and their major goal is what they've wanted from the very beginning when they chose palestine as the homeland for the jews, which is all of the area, including the designated palestinian land?

The best defense is a strong offense - Sun Tzu

[bud]

Yes..the one that bombs Iraqis, Serbs, Afghans, and Libyans! Yay human rights!

not that i agree with your comparison, but you should know by now that i don't agree with most of canada's adventures. so why try to use the hypocrite shtick when i'm not being a hypocrite?

The best defense is a strong offense - Sun Tzu

“Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower

[cybercoma]

at one point, slavery was legal and practiced. would anyone be silly enough to accept that it's okay to do now because it was practiced by 'us'?

illegal jewish settlements that continue to expand are NOT a defensive measure. it doesn't matter how much you repeat 'defending itself', it's not going to somehow make israel's land theft, water theft and brutal military operations defensive.

if you want to continue playing the no bullshit cowboy on this forum, then stop using the b.s. line that israel is defending itself and be honest that israel's ultimate goal is greater israel, which includes the land that belongs to the palestinians.

How can it be land theft when the entire state belongs to Israel?

[kraychik]

Some of our Pro-Israeli supporters here also combine the two for their side of the argument. I was called ignorant or something when I distinguish between Jews and Israel. You cannot seem to talk about just one of them. They are together, or nothing.

Israel and the Jewish people are inextricably linked. This isn't news. It is the anti-Semites who think they can hide their hatred of Jews by describing themselves as "anti-Zionists", which is totally a la mode these days among the left.

[kraychik]

yes. expanding illegal jewish settlements in the west bank and east jerusalem is all about israel defending itself from real existential threats. kind of like how the nazis had to defend itself from the jews by expanding itself around europe.

I guess the wars waged against Israel intent on destroying it, and the subsequent decades of mass murder and terrorism in and around Israel, as well as targeting Jewish interests around the world, was imagined. This attempt to describe today's Israeli Jews as today's Nazis reveals your own anti-Semitism, as it's obvious that the Jews of Europe were incomparable to the "Palestinians" and other Arabs and Muslims of today. The enemies of Israel are very real threats, whereas the Jewish enemy the Nazis went after were not real threats.

[bush_cheney2004]

not that i agree with your comparison, but you should know by now that i don't agree with most of canada's adventures. so why try to use the hypocrite shtick when i'm not being a hypocrite?

Because you are...living the good life on Native land in Vancouver while moaning about illegal Israeli "settlements".

Edited July 17, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

All of us have heard this term "preventive war" since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that is about the first time I heard it. In this day and time, if we believe for one second that nuclear fission and fusion, that type of weapon, would be used in such a war — what is a preventive war?

I would say a preventive war, if the words mean anything, is to wage some sort of quick police action in order that you might avoid a terrific cataclysm of destruction later.

A preventive war, to my mind, is an impossibility today. How could you have one if one of its features would be several cities lying in ruins, several cities where many, many thousands of people would be dead and injured and mangled, the transportation systems destroyed, sanitation implements and systems all gone? That isn't preventive war; that is war.

I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing.

It seems to me that when, by definition, a term is just ridiculous in itself, there is no use in going any further. There are all sorts of reasons, moral and political and everything else, against this theory, but it is so completely unthinkable in today's conditions that I thought it is no use to go any further.

--- Dwight D. Eisenhower

[GostHacked]

Israel and the Jewish people are inextricably linked. This isn't news. It is the anti-Semites who think they can hide their hatred of Jews by describing themselves as "anti-Zionists", which is totally a la mode these days among the left.

I am not on the left, nor the right. Not all Jews are inextricably linked, because there are Jews living abroad that want nothing to do with Israel. And what of the Jews that are anti-zionist, how are they treated? What of the Israeli's within Israel protesting Zionism? What do you say to them?

If you wan to lump them all in the same category then that would only do a disservice to Jews on the whole.

[Guest American Woman]

okay. thank you for your honesty. although, my only team is the one who strives for justice and human rights.

Yeah, right.

how about peeves and american woman? are you also willing to be honest like bc2004 is? do you also agree that israel's acts are not defensive and their major goal is what they've wanted from the very beginning when they chose palestine as the homeland for the jews, which is all of the area, including the designated palestinian land?

Get over yourself. I'm always willing to be honest; because you don't agree with me doesn't make me dishonest.

You want me to agree with your claim, then you agree that the Arab world/Palestine want to wipe Israel off the map. Deal?

[Guest Peeves]

I am not on the left, nor the right. Not all Jews are inextricably linked, because there are Jews living abroad that want nothing to do with Israel. And what of the Jews that are anti-zionist, how are they treated? What of the Israeli's within Israel protesting Zionism? What do you say to them?

If you wan to lump them all in the same category then that would only do a disservice to Jews on the whole.

I say. Any Jew that repudiates Israel, denying it as THE homeland for the Jews,that repudiates Zionism because 'the anointed one, the coming of the mashiach', must come first, is serving as a fool on a fools errand.

Israel IS here and now. Many countries, many peoples, and certainly some Jews deny it's existence. It's not on some maps.

But!

Am Yisrael Chai

It's the target of some that would destroy it. By word, by military attack, by 5th column, by rockets, by terror, by sanctions, by threat of eradication.

But, it remains a legitimate country and those that would obsessively denigrate Israel primarily while seldom if ever decrying the often barbaric acts against it,are pretty much showing their true colors and indeed furthering the third Reich's genocide.

The mandate of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran's threats are interesting reading as an agenda.

I have at times been openly critical of Israel policy. But I don't face their alternatives for mistakes made.

I am aware however that given the treatment of Jews historically, Russia, Spain, Arab countries, Germany, Poland, France, Canada, and seemingly given contemporary threat perhaps ad infinitum, Israel must be first concerned with Israelis.

Those that mainly obsess over Israel, or subtlety over Jews (as does the UN), those unable to condemn duplicity and terrorism targeting Israel, are clearly biased, bigoted and oft times prejudiced.

One thing for sure, were I an Israeli, I would be more likely to trust Jews for my security than those that Jews trusted too often.

Jews fought and died for Poland, Germany etc. as 'their centuries old homeland.' That sure worked out.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

[bud]

How can it be land theft when the entire state belongs to Israel?

i'm not sure how to respond to this. is this sarcasm? i don't remember your history of posting.

[bud]

and of course, how convenient has it become for american woman to avoid discussion on things she cannot apologize for? easy, just don't respond to them and instead make head injury comments and then count on one of the semi-literates to follow it up with a lower standard comment.

what american woman doesn't want to talk about:

You want me to agree with your claim, then you agree that the Arab world/Palestine want to wipe Israel off the map. Deal?

the palestinians government accepts israel and are willing to accept borders based on the 1967 border. in 1993, arafat signed a declarations and all of their negotiations are based on that. what the extremists on the palestinian side say is not the stance of the palestinian government for over 20 years.

where is the israeli government's acceptance of a palestinian state? why do they continue to annex more land? why do they continue to drag their feet? likud has even vowed to never allow a palestinian state. so tell me if you're going to be honest about israel.

here is something you won't hear about in the mainstream in north america:

Defense Ministry hires architect to resume construction of illegal West Bank outpost

Givat Sal'it is one of 26 communities the Sharon government had promised the United States it would tear down nearly 10 years ago.

link

yes, the always expanding settlements that continue to eat away at palestinian land the longer israel stalls and drags its feet.

interesting comment on obama:

In the early days of Netanyahu's current government, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in a statement that it was necessary to keep Sharon's commitment to tear down the 26 outposts. But defense officials say the Obama administration has lost interest in these commitments and as far as the U.S. president is concerned, there is no difference between an outpost and a settlement.

Edited July 18, 2012 by bud

[Guest American Woman]

OMG DON'T TELL ME HOW I THINK!!@!@*!Y@! YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!@!*(@

I didn't tell you how to think. I know what you think. My comment was in regards to what you think.

then be honest about israel's intentions.

IOW, think the way you do. Don't see that happening. Unless I get hit on the head and suffer brain damage resulting in an inability to think clearly. As they say, never say never.

[Guest Peeves]

I didn't tell you how to think. I know what you think. My comment was in regards to what you think.

IOW, think the way you do. Don't see that happening. Unless I get hit on the head and suffer brain damage resulting in an inability to think clearly. As they say, never say never.

I heard rumors of someone here having suffered accidentally caused brain damage. Apparently an anal laparoscopic intestinal exploration when a couple of m.m's off course and nicked a brain cell or three.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17026557

Apparently it was tried initially on a horse's ass and thence extended to a sub human volunteer.

There was apparently very little damage. In fact it may have permanently made them anal ogous.