Elliott Lake Fiasco

Topaz · June 29, 2012

One has to admit, there are many things falling apart like bridges in Toronto and Montreal and other places too. This buidling in Elloitt Lake has/had it problems too and it was given an all clear but its apparent it shouldn't have. I also heard today, there is a lawsuit forming against the owner of the building.

Signals.Cpl · June 29, 2012

One has to admit, there are many things falling apart like bridges in Toronto and Montreal and other places too. This buidling in Elloitt Lake has/had it problems too and it was given an all clear but its apparent it shouldn't have. I also heard today, there is a lawsuit forming against the owner of the building.

I would hope so, I also hope that he/they rot in jail for this negligence.

Wild Bill · June 29, 2012

I would hope so, I also hope that he/they rot in jail for this negligence.

Apparently, the owner spent over a million dollars in repairs. He has only owned the mall for a few years. This sort of deterioration takes longer than that to become apparent.

The mall was also duly inspected by the responsible authorities, at HIS request! Everyone said things were just fine!

I wouldn't be too quick to hang the owner. We should wait for an inquiry, assuming McGuinty actually appoints one and lets it operate honestly.

Signals.Cpl · June 29, 2012

Apparently, the owner spent over a million dollars in repairs. He has only owned the mall for a few years. This sort of deterioration takes longer than that to become apparent.

The mall was also duly inspected by the responsible authorities, at HIS request! Everyone said things were just fine!

I wouldn't be too quick to hang the owner. We should wait for an inquiry, assuming McGuinty actually appoints one and lets it operate honestly.

Well in that case, anyone and everyone who is responsible...

WWWTT · June 30, 2012

I'm not criticizing for criticisms sake. I just want to see some variety.

Then start a thread about it.

WWWTT

WWWTT · June 30, 2012

That is very worrisome for all of us. I read that the parking zone was added on above the mall to increase parking for mall customers. Stinks of greed.

But its OK when greedy companies go after unions.

WWWTT

WWWTT · June 30, 2012

That is total BS. What do you thing rescuers do? That is what they get paid for? Look at 9/11 ,look when a mine collapes.Look all over the place and the heroics that take place SAVING PEOPLE LIVES. What they have done is a national shame. Heads must roll, starting with the minister in charge, Madeleine Meilleur and then dalton. Meiller was to busy with st bastice day to get invovled, she and staff should have been there on day 1 or 2, not heading up there now. Harper offered the military help, dalton said everything is under control. So everyone that keeps voting lib and the dippers that had a chance to get rid of these fools, thank you very much.

What day did Harper offer help?

WWWTT

WWWTT · June 30, 2012

The blame will go to the mall owners and the builders. As it should. But with those allegations if true, I would hope Dalton gets the boot and charged for negligence.

Also the building inspectors and the municipality that issued the building permits will get sued.

The engineering company who designed the building should also get sued too!

This will take years to settle.

WWWTT

Wild Bill · June 30, 2012

What day did Harper offer help?

WWWTT

There is a protocol to these things. A Mayor is supposed to ask the Premier of his province. A Premier asks the Prime Minister.

Going the other way makes the lower level functionary appear ineffective.

Of course, in this case it would appear that they were!

Shakeyhands · July 1, 2012

We should wait for an inquiry, assuming McGuinty actually appoints one and lets it operate honestly.

Quite the statement WB, why do you believe there is need for a public inquiry?

gregoryd · July 1, 2012

Well, you have to think of the rescuers now. Obviously the building is unstable, and the structure needs to be assessed for safe search and rescue. And if they go in, they could end up getting trapped, killed themselves. And if that happened, people would bitch that they should not have gone in that soon.

There is no way I'd be entering that structure at this point.

Was there a small quake to rattle the building? Ground shifted? Weather wear? Not built right in the first place? Many unanswered questions at this point.

This is nonsense. All structures can be unstable and most rescues entail this. A rescue team supports the structures through proven methods used by industry and other team. It is called structural support. This team had not even been deployed in 10 years so they were just not up to the task. If safety is that paramount then just keep the team home unless the vicitms are laying out in the parking lot.

gregoryd · July 1, 2012

This is nonsense. All structures can be unstable and most rescues entail this. A rescue team supports the structures through proven methods used by industry and other team. It is called structural support. This team had not even been deployed in 10 years so they were just not up to the task. If safety is that paramount then just keep the team home unless the vicitms are laying out in the parking lot.

gregoryd · July 1, 2012

The Rescue was/is done poorly. But does this have to be on the news 24/7? No disrespect to the victims and their family and friends and the community. But how many times can they tell us what happened and how many locals can they interview to tell us how horrible it is?

Is this just me? I know the networks are trying to fill time but there is other things going on.

this is how we change things by harping at everyone. :-)

Signals.Cpl · July 1, 2012

There is a protocol to these things. A Mayor is supposed to ask the Premier of his province. A Premier asks the Prime Minister.

Going the other way makes the lower level functionary appear ineffective.

Of course, in this case it would appear that they were!

I dont think so, it is just an offer, Harper states that if you need it we have a Combat Engineer Regiment if you need it. I think its the proper way, informing the lower level of government what kind of resources the higher level of government has to offer.

Wild Bill · July 1, 2012

I guess this is the path we are following:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/inquiry-opens-in-case-of-uk-man-who-drowned-as-firefighters-refused-to-help-citing-safety-rules/

"Inquiry Opens in Case of UK Man Who Drowned as Firefighters Refused to Help Citing Safety Rules"

"n a story that seems too unbelievable to be true, a charity shop worker drowned in a shallow lake in Gosport, England, after firemen and rescue workers stood by and refused to help. The man, 41-year-old Simon Burgess, fell into the water while feeding swans and was left there until a rescue team with individuals who were legally able to assist reached him 28 minutes later. And while the incident occurred last spring, officials are starting to hear testimony in an official inquiry this week.

Simon Burgess Drowns in Shallow Water as Firefighters Watch

The firemen, who were reportedly only 25 feet away from the man, allegedly refused to rescue the man, as they cited health and safety regulations. And a police officer who arrived after learning about the incident was reportedly called back after he started moving into the ankle-deep water to rescue the man."

I find this similar to what we have been told about the Elliot Lake disaster. At first thought, of course it's possible that it was too dangerous initially for rescue workers to enter. Possible, but who said? We tend to confuse possible with actual and take the report as a given.

Rescue workers are supposed to be trained for dangerous situations and to use their own judgement and initiative. This is not what had happened in Elliot Lake. A Health and Safety official had made his own decision and called the workers off.

In effect, rescue work was made into a bureaucratic procedure, where individual judgement is substituted for a rule book, a very thick rule book! Individual judgement is removed.

It seems to me that this incident in Britain perfectly illustrates the end result of such thinking.

July 2, 2012

I guess this is the path we are following:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/inquiry-opens-in-case-of-uk-man-who-drowned-as-firefighters-refused-to-help-citing-safety-rules/

The 'work' was temp. halted because the collapsed escalator totally blocked any progress. They were considering alternative routes, then resumed to no avail. It was not until the large crane moved the escalator that the site could be entered where the bodies were. They never quit nor did they ever stop, they were blocked and stymied and could do nothing with the resources available to them. That

s hardly analogous to your examples in any way that I can see.

GostHacked · July 3, 2012

I guess this is the path we are following:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/inquiry-opens-in-case-of-uk-man-who-drowned-as-firefighters-refused-to-help-citing-safety-rules/

The 'work' was temp. halted because the collapsed escalator totally blocked any progress. They were considering alternative routes, then resumed to no avail. It was not until the large crane moved the escalator that the site could be entered where the bodies were. They never quit nor did they ever stop, they were blocked and stymied and could do nothing with the resources available to them. That

s hardly analogous to your examples in any way that I can see.

Elliot Lake is a small town and does not have the resources local to the town for this rescue operation. If anything there might be something in Sudbury that could have been deployed to assist.

GostHacked · July 3, 2012

This is nonsense. All structures can be unstable and most rescues entail this. A rescue team supports the structures through proven methods used by industry and other team. It is called structural support. This team had not even been deployed in 10 years so they were just not up to the task. If safety is that paramount then just keep the team home unless the vicitms are laying out in the parking lot.

You never want to be in a situation where you need to rescue your rescue team. Think about it.

gregoryd · July 3, 2012

I guess this is the path we are following:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/inquiry-opens-in-case-of-uk-man-who-drowned-as-firefighters-refused-to-help-citing-safety-rules/

The 'work' was temp. halted because the collapsed escalator totally blocked any progress. They were considering alternative routes, then resumed to no avail. It was not until the large crane moved the escalator that the site could be entered where the bodies were. They never quit nor did they ever stop, they were blocked and stymied and could do nothing with the resources available to them. That

s hardly analogous to your examples in any way that I can see.

gregoryd · July 3, 2012

ame='Peeves' date='02 July 2012 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1341248086' post='809078']

They are only saying that now because the Premiure raked them over the coals for being so stupid. Their statement at the press confrence stated: We are turning the property back over to the mall owner who will have to bring in engineers and excavate the bodies with respect. This is not called regrouping, it is called giving up. Only after the citizens, that have of alot of mine rescue people with experience, threatend to force their way in to rescue the person trapped and alive, did they amazingly decide they were regrouping. The structure could of been made safe through proven support technics used frequently by other teams. They did not even have support timber on the site. All they had was 4*4s which under building code won't even support a residential deck 2 feet off the ground. This shows how prepared they were. Larger timber was available and they did not even request it.

July 3, 2012

They are only saying that now because the Premiure raked them over the coals for being so stupid. Their statement at the press confrence stated: We are turning the property back over to the mall owner who will have to bring in engineers and excavate the bodies with respect. This is not called regrouping, it is called giving up. Only after the citizens, that have of alot of mine rescue people with experience, threatend to force their way in to rescue the person trapped and alive, did they amazingly decide they were regrouping. The structure could of been made safe through proven support technics used frequently by other teams. They did not even have support timber on the site. All they had was 4*4s which under building code won't even support a residential deck 2 feet off the ground. This shows how prepared they were. Larger timber was available and they did not even request it.

I have not been made privy to that statement. If it's a verbatim quote can you source it?

Signals.Cpl · July 3, 2012

They are only saying that now because the Premiure raked them over the coals for being so stupid. Their statement at the press confrence stated: We are turning the property back over to the mall owner who will have to bring in engineers and excavate the bodies with respect. This is not called regrouping, it is called giving up. Only after the citizens, that have of alot of mine rescue people with experience, threatend to force their way in to rescue the person trapped and alive, did they amazingly decide they were regrouping. The structure could of been made safe through proven support technics used frequently by other teams. They did not even have support timber on the site. All they had was 4*4s which under building code won't even support a residential deck 2 feet off the ground. This shows how prepared they were. Larger timber was available and they did not even request it.

1)Sure since you are the SME tell us in great detail how it could have been done properly in the exact situation since you seem pretty well acquainted with the emergency in question.

2)SAR does not just pack up and leave on their own accord, someone somewhere high up in the government decided to pack it up and go, willing or unwilling they would have to go because those are the orders.

3)The people of Elliot Lake were full of hot air and nothing more, if they had gone in HUSAR would have had to go in and rescue a bunch of people who have no idea what they are doing.

WWWTT · July 4, 2012

You never want to be in a situation where you need to rescue your rescue team. Think about it.

Yep I thought about it.

Why would you have a rescue team if they can never be used?

That would be like buying food you never eat,buying a car you never drive,etc,etc

WWWTT

guyser · July 4, 2012

Yep I thought about it.

Why would you have a rescue team if they can never be used?

No one said they never can be used, just not when the risk is too high

That would be like buying food you never eat,buying a car you never drive,etc,etc

WWWTT

Not quite.

One doesnt buy food that is spoiled and likely to make you sick.

Do you drive a car w bald tires and no brakes? Why not?

Signals.Cpl · July 5, 2012

Yep I thought about it.

Why would you have a rescue team if they can never be used?

That would be like buying food you never eat,buying a car you never drive,etc,etc

WWWTT

What happens if the Escalator collapsed and brought down even more of the mall? Instead of rescuing 2 people now you have a portion of the HUSAR team to rescue. Just like in First aid you look out for yourself first to make sure you don't become a casualty while helping, likewise in a plane you are told to put your mask on first before helping others. What would it change if there was a further collapse and 10 SAR team members were trapped and/or killed?