DogOnPorch Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 OK - you are obviously on a different intellectual plane that I cannot comprehend. Good luck with your Crusade. My 'Crusade' involves beer, friends and BBQs. Minus the hornets. Owww. Now why can't we all just do that? In Africa in particular?? There must be a reason... You're not forthcoming and get pithy when somebody refuses to play along 'proper' with your wee Q&A. Are you doing a study re: forum posters and sympathy? Let me know. Or are you one of those types that wants answers without mentioning the 500lb gorilla in the room that is Islam? Again...let me know. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
carepov Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 My 'Crusade' involves beer, friends and BBQs. Minus the hornets. Owww. Now why can't we all just do that? In Africa in particular?? There must be a reason... You're not forthcoming and get pithy when somebody refuses to play along 'proper' with your wee Q&A. Are you doing a study re: forum posters and sympathy? Let me know. Or are you one of those types that wants answers without mentioning the 500lb gorilla in the room that is Islam? Again...let me know. I see no reason that you cannot enjoy your beer, friends and BBQs. There are places in Africa where this would not be possible, specifically Dadaab. Here's one reason: you were born here and not there. If you would have been born there - no matter how hard you worked and studied how moral you were and no matter what religion you chose if any - you would most likely not be able to enjoy life. I am just trying to have a discussion. My goal is to learn a little about Canadian and International politics. If I am asked a reasonable question I try to answer it or admit that I have no answer. Sorry if I came off as arrogant and inquisitorial in my multiple choice - please note though that I was not asking a series of questions, just repeating the ones where I did not get an answer from you. Regarding Islam, it does seem that the least peaceful nations are more likely to be Islamic; however I don't see the causal link. Enlighten me if you wish but please do not feel obliged. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 I see no reason that you cannot enjoy your beer, friends and BBQs. There are places in Africa where this would not be possible, specifically Dadaab. Here's one reason: you were born here and not there. If you would have been born there - no matter how hard you worked and studied how moral you were and no matter what religion you chose if any - you would most likely not be able to enjoy life. Africa under Pax Britanica was a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask Gordon)...but Africa had peace for the most part. Something changed that...and it wasn't me...or you for that matter. I am just trying to have a discussion. My goal is to learn a little about Canadian and International politics. If I am asked a reasonable question I try to answer it or admit that I have no answer. Sorry if I came off as arrogant and inquisitorial in my multiple choice - please note though that I was not asking a series of questions, just repeating the ones where I did not get an answer from you. Regarding Islam, it does seem that the least peaceful nations are more likely to be Islamic; however I don't see the causal link. Enlighten me if you wish but please do not feel obliged. This is enlightening. Now what is wrong with this picture? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/world/africa/shabab-gives-unusual-prizes-for-somali-children-in-contest.html I have to admit I've rarely run into folks who simply do not know of Islam's effect on Africa. Plenty of Islamic supporters who lie. But, you're the new creature, eh? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
carepov Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 Then what does having more sympathy do? Do you think that having more sympathy will increase international debt when the government is cutting essential services like the HUSAR teams? Do you think that individuals with more sympathy will donate more? If I understand you right, you wish we had more sympathy for the starving refugees but you acknowledge its unlikely we will be giving anything up to improve the lives of those people, what exactly is that extra sympathy going to do when many Canadians families are struggling to pay the bills? How would it be an improvement and a benefit to Canada? We need to keep refugee status for those who are actually in need of refugee status, starvation in your home country is not a proper reason for refugee status mainly because there are hundreds of millions suffering that fate and likely the once who made it to Canada to claim refugee status are not exactly to most in need. How will you chose who gets to be a refugee in Canada, and who gets to stay back home in the refugee Camp and starve? Do we take refugees from one camp, or a lottery system to collect from each camp world wide? Do we pay for their airfare and then give financial assistance when they arrive? And if we give them financial assistance as I assume the government still does for how long do we do that? When do they get Canadian citizenship? Are there going to be any requirements that we will place on the refugees? Learn english and start working in X months, or do we let them remain on government assistance for 5,10, 20 or 50 years? Whoa, that's a lot of questions, I'll try my best to respond: Regarding Canada's refugee system. It is imperfect (like all systems) and there are "fake refugees". It should be improved I think that the creation of the "safe country list" is a good step to fast track "fake refugees". The $2000 incentive announced today to leave the country sounds like a good idea too. On the other hand, the cutting of the Interim Federal Health Program (IFHP) is a stupid idea (slightly less stupid now that the government has partially backtracked). Before making or recommending any other changes I would need to learn more starting with: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/canada.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/research-stats/facts2010.pdf For now, I am going to assume that people working in Citizenship and Immigration Canada are more qualified than me - I try to keep a healthy balance between trust and scepticism. I will certainly assume that any refugee from Dadaab and similar government-sponsored refugees are authentic refugees. And you are correct there is no way we can help all these people - it is not an all or none question though. You are also right - it is not fair that some get to come to Canada and others don't. This must be a difficult choice for CIC employees. OK, once the refugee is in Canada, despite any injustices and unfairness in them getting here, they are here and will become Canadian citizens and so will their kids. Here is where more sympathy from all ordinary Canadians will benefit Canada: -if one has no time and money, just saying "Welcome to Canada, Good Luck!" instead of being rude/judgemental and saying "Go back to Africa!" or worse (Please note I am not inferring that you are unwelcoming - but some Canadians are). This will help refugees become more productive faster. -talking to refugees will help them learn English -There are organizations that pair Canadian families with newcomers to meet and hang-out together. This again will help with the English and help newcomers adapt more quickly, also it is a benefit to the Canadian family to learn more about the world -If one is an employer/supervisor/co-worker and a newcomer is hired just think of how a little sympathy would make that person more productive, again especially if hostility is replaced with welcoming -If one is a teacher... -If one is coach... -If one is a good role model for kids... Regarding sympathy and international aid: - If one has nothing or does not want to donate money, at least do not discourage others from doing so - Most natural disasters invoke a great deal of sympathy and aid - I see no reason to have more sympathy for a victim of a natural disaster versus a man-made disaster - More sympathetic people in the West would eventually lead to more sympathetic governments - i.e. less apathetic people in the West would eventually lead to less apathetic governments - A major reason for not intervening in Rwanda was apathy - More sympathetic Western governments would sell fewer arms to oppressive regimes - ... Quote
carepov Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 Africa under Pax Britanica was a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask Gordon)...but Africa had peace for the most part. Something changed that...and it wasn't me...or you for that matter. I definitely admire your gusto and your confidence. Personally I do not accept such claims without supporting data. This is enlightening. Now what is wrong with this picture? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/world/africa/shabab-gives-unusual-prizes-for-somali-children-in-contest.html These people and groups in Somalia do seem crazy and they are very Islamic. Thanks, I will add this to my ongoing list of: "anecdotal evidence that evil is directly proportional to Islamism". It is a long list but I generally do not give too much weight to data until it becomes statistically significant. Even then, I am always reminding myself that correlation does not automatically establish causation. I have to admit I've rarely run into folks who simply do not know of Islam's effect on Africa. Plenty of Islamic supporters who lie. But, you're the new creature, eh? "Islam's effect on Africa" I am going to learn more about this topic - thank you for sparking my interest. Yes, I'm new here and "I yam what I yam". Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 Proof? Pax Britanica is a known historical period. Not one of these modern 'facts are opinions and opinions are facts' BS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Britannica Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
carepov Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 Proof? Pax Britanica is a known historical period. Not one of these modern 'facts are opinions and opinions are facts' BS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Britannica Funny I was just reading the exact same wiki! What I am sceptical of is your claim that "Africa under Pax Britannica was a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask Gordon)...but Africa had peace for the most part". I would start with: -Life expectancy then vs. now -Violent deaths per capita then vs. now (perhaps via Steven Pinker's “The Better Angels of Our Nature") Hey, perhaps one could even argue: "Africa today is a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask DogOnPorch)...but Africa is peaceful for the most part". Quote
kraychik Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Isn't it hilarious that leftists adore nonsensical and arbitrarily-defined lists like this "Global Peace Index"? I know I'm not the only one who has never heard of this list. Leftists love charts and graphs and statistics, but hate to actually take a moment to examine the methodologies behind their composition. What this seems like to me is a slightly-veiled attempt to smear the current Canadian government. I can see it now, a bunch of hippie arts students in Starbucks are reading this story from their favourite hard-hitting news outlet, The Guardian, and are SHOCKED, I repeat SHOCKED to discover that Canada has lost ground on the "Global Peace Index" (which they've never heard of until now), they immediately hit Twitter to spread the news of another Harper administration catastrophe! Canada falls beneath the radar always. We were in Afghanistan for a decade and the taliban pretty much ignored us when they made threats. It was all about the U.S & Britain. Same with Al Qaedia. So the nearly two hundred Canadian soldiers that were killed in Afghanistan since the beginning of the campaign (which would amount to about two thousand Americans when considering proportion, considering our population is about a tenth that of America's) were "ignored"? What relevance do the YouTube Taliban propaganda threats have over the real events occurring in Afghanistan? I'm not even sure it's worth getting into the fact that Canada *was* threatened by Islamist propaganda from Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and other such groups. Edited July 6, 2012 by kraychik Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 Funny I was just reading the exact same wiki! What I am sceptical of is your claim that "Africa under Pax Britannica was a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask Gordon)...but Africa had peace for the most part". I would start with: -Life expectancy then vs. now -Violent deaths per capita then vs. now (perhaps via Steven Pinker's “The Better Angels of Our Nature") Hey, perhaps one could even argue: "Africa today is a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask DogOnPorch)...but Africa is peaceful for the most part". I'll just put you in the 'facts are opinions' grouping, then. You do know Chinese Gordon, I assume? That's what zee Google is for. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
carepov Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 I'll just put you in the 'facts are opinions' grouping, then. You do know Chinese Gordon, I assume? That's what zee Google is for. No I never heard of Chinese Gordon, thanks for this and thanks again for Lotta Hitschmanova, Pax Bitannica, Islam in Africa... I love this stuff! Regarding "facts", here's one that I think you'll like: E. H. Carr Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Lord Kitchner was sent a tad late to save his azz....errr....head. Didn't work out so well for Gordon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman Carr...what about him? Do you admire his views? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HcQ_IveQCI A Charlton Heston classic! He's Gordon...of course. Edited July 6, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kraychik Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 No I never heard of Chinese Gordon, thanks for this and thanks again for Lotta Hitschmanova, Pax Bitannica, Islam in Africa... I love this stuff! Regarding "facts", here's one that I think you'll like: E. H. Carr What's Carr got to do with this discussion? Quote
carepov Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 Lord Kitchner was sent a tad late to save his azz....errr....head. Didn't work out so well for Gordon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman Carr...what about him? Do you admire his views? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HcQ_IveQCI A Charlton Heston classic! He's Gordon...of course. Yes, "Khartoum" is now on the top of my "must see movie" list! Carr, no I do not admire his views although his writings about "historical facts" are interesting and he was English. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 6, 2012 Report Posted July 6, 2012 What's Carr got to do with this discussion? I believe it has something to do with the statement about facts and opinions. The Battle of Omdurman might well be a figment of my imagination. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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